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Old 07-06-2007, 05:37 AM   #196
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Costs of racing EP TC has just got to high... so people are going EP and Nitro off road.. more people are just bashing and the tracks and clubs are suffering.. It's not going to get any better. If ur lucky enuf to have a real track in your area support it.. support is more than paying fee's and spending money with the LHS that owns it.. support is turning up.. helping new racers.. setting up and cleaning up and working together to keep it alive.
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Old 07-06-2007, 06:58 AM   #197
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I'm sorry but everyone needs to compromise. $20 for a class is reasonable if we are talking about a perminent track. You don't just get pit space but you also get to race on a prepared surface all day with employees running the race. If you race in california that piece of land can be upwards of 300k in the cheaper areas.
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Old 07-06-2007, 07:21 AM   #198
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Default $50 race fees

No one suggested $50 to race. My idea was simply $20 for 2 classes which is $10 per class and cheaper than the normal $15 for the first class and $10 for the second. You charge $20 to encourage more classes, which brings in more racers, and makes the track a little more money. In addition you have racing packages that include racing and/or practice and make them even cheaper if you prepay a month at a time.

There is another benefit to giving 2 classes for $20. Guys will bring their Mini Coopers, spec cars, 1/12 scale cars, whatever it addition to their 4wd sedans. This will encourage others to come to race who think that 4wd sedan has gotton too expensive.

How am I questioning someone's financial resources if I suggest a $30 annual club fee? $30 is $2.50 a month. I am sensitive to people's budgets but you have to also be reasonable. A track has to at least break even.

The real question is whether paying $5 more to race while throwing in a second class will actually stop people from racing? I don't think it will, but who has tried it?

Many racers are adults, and the kids are using their parent's money. It is up to the adults to see if their budgets allow them to race. Racing is a hobby, and like all hobbies, it costs money.

When people golf does the course assume they can't afford the green fees and let them play free? How about indoor tennis courts, pools, anywhere?
If your car breaks and you go to a repair shop to have it fixed, does the shop adjust the price based on what they think your budget is?

Tracks need to be run as a business to stay afloat.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:24 AM   #199
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My previous home track revelation raceway charged $20 for a club race and held the schedule where we would finish by 3:00 p.m. and would open up the track for free practice to all that paid for racing. This added $$$ since there were a lot of beginners that were not willing to race and they would pay $11 to practice for the rest of the day.

I also beleive that there are too many classes in electric which eats up most of the day and leaves everyone short in track time. Keep the classes limited and just open up the track for practice and having a good time.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:47 AM   #200
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A big problem for tracks can be seen by some of the comments on this thread. People that think that an RC track should be a charity. Club racing at $10-$15 is completly unrealistic in most markets. Lets see, we pay $8-$10 dollars to get into a movie for 1.5 - 2 hrs of entertainment. A round a golf in my area on a muni course is $40 or so dollars for 3-4 hours of entertainment. Entertainment ain't cheap these days. When was the last time you saw movie theater charge $3 for movie or the last time you paid under $20 for a round of golf? I would have to say back in the early 90's or late 80's. Tracks that are still charging $10 entry fees have been charging that for a real long time, and that is comepletly unrealistic. Someone please tell me where else you can pay $20 for 6-8 hrs of entertainment, hang out with your friends all day. This is a hobby yes, but it's also entertainment and one of the best entertainment returns for your dollar. Should race fees be higher, in my opinion yes, but the market won't bear it.

I hear many people complaining about track time or a lack of it or it's to expensive to race at $20 entery fees per class 3 or 4 times a week. Yes this all may be true but ain't it expensive going golfing 3-4 times a month, or going to the movies 3-4 times a week. A $20 entry fee for club races is more than fair. At our track on a typical Saturday we open our doors at 9:00 am, race at 12:00 pm and depending on the number of entries and how late we get done we'll leave the track open to 6:00 pm for open practice. We charge $20 for the first, $5 for the second and the 3rd is free if you dare run that many classes. We also have a family (father son) deal because we encourage this as a family hobby. $30 dollars for a father son on the 1st and $5 each per additional entry. If the family is more than 2 then we charge $10 for each additional member and if they run multiple classes it's $5 additional per each person per class for the second and the 3rd class is always free. These are more than fair rates and it's still hard to make ends meet.
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Old 07-06-2007, 09:50 AM   #201
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Some of the ideas here are great we have tried a few of them and been successful others have bombed horribly.

Pitspace rental fees $20/month. We limit this to 2 full tables out of 5 and the end spaces only on the other 3. When all are taken it gives us income on 30 or so spaces. Those people we find are the volunteers for the track, layout change jump behind the counter etc. We have about 10 people total who help in this manner.

Monthly racing/pitspace/practice fee we tried this one and it did not sit well. $400 sedan no problem $100-$150 for all inclusive package just did not sit well. We priced it so that the guy who is racing 1-2 times a week and practice 1-2 days a week would save about 10-15% on all their fees plus have the pit space included.

Fees for Seattle Indoor Raceway
$15 first class Friday and Sunday
$5 second class

$7 Wednesday Night racing originally as a promo but quickly became a regular and popular night. We have left it as is so far.

Rent on avg for the track $5800/mo plus utilities. Do the math......
Yes we have an onsite hobbyshop to keep the track open you cannot generate enough race fees and vice versa you cannot keep the hobbyshop open without the race fees.

We also offer points series to any of the racers who want to put one together. If they have an idea we'll put it in the mix based on racer input. We also come up with our own ideas to keep it fresh. These have included, Outlaw Mini, Beetle cup(HPI Body), Spec Sedan, Free trip to Tamiya Nationals, 12 hr Mini Enduro, 24 hour Guiness World Record Enduro. We also cater to a growing Heli crowd and myself and other regulars heve gotten into them along with the plank(airplane) crowd.

We also are the host track for ROAR Nats next weekend along with hosting a TCS Regional for the last 3 years.

Classes we race on a weekly basis.
GT3 (silvercan)
GT2 (Roar Stock)
13.5 Brushless
GT1 (19T)

We are an indoor asphalt facility. This Winter we are putting carpet down for the Season, maybe longer. We bought all the carpet from 2 other facilities that closed earlier this year Peel-It and Rain City.

Racing in the area is down as a whole. The local outdoor program that draws large crowds generally, is down 15-20% also in their attendance.

Sorry for it sounding like an ad but wanted to put some facts and ideas behind what we do.
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Old 07-06-2007, 10:15 AM   #202
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It's easy to blame Tower or Horizon, but, no one has explained how on-line dealers stop people from racing their cars?

It's not just touring cars that are in decline. 1/10 stadium trucks, buggies and pan cars are also dissapearing. Maybe the entire RC Racing Hobby is going through a contraction.

So why is 1/8 buggy so resilient? I think they are the most consistantly performing and forgiving RC vehicle going. You can get on the pace with a minimal amount of practice. It doesnt matter if you have a $500 RTR or $1500 kit; you can clear the triple with ease and hit 40+ mph and smile down the straight.

The 1/8 main is 15-30 minutes long and usually, at some point, things get sorted out and you can get into cruise control and enjoy the race. Conversely, touring cars require tremendous amounts of concentration and failure to stay in the proper line will usually cause you to hit a pipe and/or break.

And 1/8 scale is not separated into redundant segments like stock, 19t, and mod that has plagued electric racing for years now. Isn't that what's qualifying is for anyhow? To separate everyone out and place you in the main you belong in.

The formula for keeping people in racing is finding a class of vehicle that is fast and controllable for beginners, intermediates, and experts alike. Right now, the only class that offers that is 1/8 scale buggy and truggies.

The question is what will it take for touring cars to perform like that?
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:02 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post

The question is what will it take for touring cars to perform like that?
Convert em to rally, and race em in the dirt. Still one of my favorite classes of all time.

Maybe we should take all the money the cities are spending on skate parks and use it for RC. Everywhere I go now there is a new one popping up. Ok its official Im gettin OLD. Darn Kids!
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Old 07-06-2007, 11:53 AM   #204
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It seems odd to me that people that are willing to pay $500 for a car and $35 per set of 3 run tires are complaining about $20 entry fee with $10 for the second etc.

It is apparent that the reason "Indoor tracks droppin' like flies" is that many of us are cheap, cheap, cheap.....

If you want to have that track, and continue racing locally, open up your wallet and PAY FOR IT. Otherwise....don't complain when you are driving 3+ hours to enjoy your hobby.

We only have ourselves to blame.....
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:05 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by EAMotorsports View Post

Governing bodies must figure out a way to deal with lipo's and 4 cell classes before legalizing them. That's the MAJOR hold up. Trust me I am on the Roar On-Road committee and this is a current topic that we are trying to figure out a way around. A saddle pack type lipo could be one route but it would still be way to fast for 12th scale on-road or Oval.

... a lipo pack does not hold a candle to a below average Nimh pack. BUT lipo's still run good on the track and for the person looking for no maintenance, doesnt have to replace cells every month and charge every two races then lipo is the answer.


Am I seeing a contradiction here. In the same post, you mention lipo as being way too fast for 12th scale, then you mention they don't even compare to Nimh.
Is there such a thing as way too fast in racing anyway?
Why can't lipos be legalize one class at a time as technology develops.
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:22 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
Am I seeing a contradiction here. In the same post, you mention lipo as being way too fast for 12th scale, then you mention they don't even compare to Nimh.
For comparative nominal voltage vs. actual discharge voltage between the two (e.g. 7.4 li-po against a 7.2 volt NiMh) the statement is correct. The problem that arises, as pointed out in the new thread dealing with Li-Po in 1/12th is that a 7.4 volt li-po is to much for 1/12th scale and 3.4 volt (the other option, or 1 cell) may not be enough and would require a receiver pack. It is basically a form factor problem that arises for 1/12th scale which is currently 4 cell or 4.8 volts nominal.

As a descendant of 6-cell, or 7.2 volt IFMAR 1/12th scale days I can only imagine what it would be like with todays technology.... And it scares me....

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Old 07-06-2007, 12:24 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by benmlee View Post
Am I seeing a contradiction here. In the same post, you mention lipo as being way too fast for 12th scale, then you mention they don't even compare to Nimh.
Is there such a thing as way too fast in racing anyway?
Why can't lipos be legalize one class at a time as technology develops.
12th scale cars run on 4 cells, 4.8v nominally. There is nothing in lipo that comes close to this. One cell lipo is 3.8 volts. Electronics really need >4v to operate reliably.

Legalizing Lipos for one class at a time could happen, unless the world switches to 5 cell...
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Old 07-06-2007, 12:24 PM   #208
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billjacobs -

I think my only real point is perceiving what people can afford...and being realistic about it.

MOST people don't live within their means anyway (Why are people so far in debt already) and MOST industries don't care...WHICH IS WHY A credit card company will give a credit card w/ a 10,000 limit to someone already $50,000 in debt.

GET MONEY FROM THEM TODAY and LET THEM worry about how to pay for it tomorrow...

As far as 'entry' pricing - it has become the time where 20.00 entry fees should almost be the NORM at the Club level and big races should be a minimum of 50-75 bucks. Even that probably won't cover the cost and expenses for a lot of events - and sadly it WILL keep some people from showing up at the same time.

I WISH I could run our races like a BUSINESS - but if I did - I would have STOPPED putting on races 6 years ago - cause I lost over $2500.00 from my own PERSONAL funds just the first year I started promoting/directing races.

Since then I've cut some of the 'high expense' thnigs - the racers don't get AS MUCH for showing up on race day - AND I've been forced to raise entry fees after 6 years from $20.00 to $25.00.

Since what I do is a TRAVELLING show - I also go where MORE Racers are - instead of having them TRAVEL to where I am. I cost less for ME to travel 150 miles to put a race on - than it does to have 30 - 35 racers travel 150 miles to come to one of MY events...so the extra $5.00 entry is by far a huge savings over the $35.00 they were having to spend extra in gasoline and time travel.

..now - here's a sample of what you can get for $20.00 in MY area

$20.00 = 5.9 gallons of gas
$20.00 = a single day WRIST BAND for attractions at the local BOOMERS Amusement and Mini Golf course (Summer Rate)
$20.00 = a small steak dinner for one.
$20.00 = movie for 2 + 2 tacos at taco bell
$20.00 = A grandstand seat at the local DIRT OVAL SPEEDWAY + a Large Soda

Try spending the day at Disneyland - Knott's Berry Farm - Magic Mountain - I just took my kids - 2 friends - and my niece to KNOTT'S for my son's birthday. (There were 7 of us) 34.95 per head to walk in the gate, we were there for 12 hours (10 am to 10 pm) had 2 meals in the park which averaged $9.00 per person with drink per meal - and went to CARROWS afterward for dinner - which also averaged about $9.00 per head before tip.

7 people x's 3 meals = 21 meals

21 meals x's 9.00 per meal = $189.00 + tip at carrows was $12.00

Plus 2 motel rooms for the 7 of us @ $129.00 per room.

KNOTTS BERRY TRIP - total was just over $703.00 (or average $100.00 per head) I considered this pretty reasonable - when breaking it down - but WOW did it hurt whipping out the CASH for it.

Oh and that didn't count GASOLINE for the trip from the Central Coast down to Orange County (about another $85.00 between the 2 cars)
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Old 07-06-2007, 01:19 PM   #209
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Default pricing for racing


I guess the real question is should you be spending $2500 out of pocket to put on races? This subsidizes racers who don't want to spend a little more on racing fees.

The issue of what $20 can buy you as an alternative to r/c racing is important, but what about $32 per set of tires, $32 for a motor, $440 for a car kit, etc, etc, etc. If racers were racing $80 tc3's with year old tires and monster stock motors, fine, you've made your point. But when racers have over $1k on the track racing, and then don't want to spend $5 more to race, it is a different argument entirely.

My suggestion was to offer $20 for 2 classes, which is cheaper or equal to what a lot of tracks charge now ($15 + $10 or $15 + $5.) If you have racers that truly can't afford to race for $20, they can volunteer at the track and get a racing credit.

It seems silly that the average r/c sedan kit is $400 +, and race fees haven't changed in 10 or 12 years.
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Old 07-06-2007, 02:02 PM   #210
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K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. Sounds corny but thats what you have to do to keep a track open. Don't go out on a limb and spend thousands of dollars to open any RC track(dirt or onroad) and expect to make any money. Its NOT going to happen. Been around doing this way too long. Only tracks that make it offset their expenses with a good strong hobby shop. Outdoor tracks are the cheapest route but they have the weather come in to play. Indoor is year round but overhead is a killer unless you know someone rich thats willing to write an indoor track off. We the racer sometimes confuse the issue of why tracks close. For the most part they open to make money. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN! Do the math. And large races only kill the local tracks. Personally I think the Pro Series is harming the RC industry. I've done it. I prepare weeks in advance for that big race and don't go to my local track trying to save alittle money and then after the race it just doesn't seem like a local is that much fun. So for a month or more the track suffers. We can go on and on and its not going to change anything. Keep racing! Support the little guys!!
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