ROAR STOCK motors.... rule changes regarding BRUSHLESS
06-19-2007, 10:03 AM
#61
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Too much to cover here, please email me.
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06-19-2007, 11:22 AM
#62
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.
(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."
It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Spec class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Stock class: 150 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power
This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.[/SIZE]
Yes, if a watt limit was set, then it would fill all the technical loop holes. You'll notice that HP (Watts) is the combination of torque and RPM. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about limiting RPM's.
Adrian, you have to keep the two topics separated. Cheating / local track tech'ing is one topic, and defining what motors are ROAR approved is another topic. Cheating / tech'ing is always going to be an issue regardless of rules, and it's really not applicable to this thread. If ROAR determined our motor classes by power, then it would be a step in the right direction. One step at a time.
I would love to see some dynos become more commonly available. This would certainly help make things easier. But in the meantime, it might be possible for this to work now. Let's say, ROAR announces they will start classifying motors classes by power. They announce their testing dynos will be the CE Turbo Dyno. A new rule is added: To maintain approval status for that motor, ROAR will perform random testing on any new-in-package, off-the-shelf motor, from any hobby store. (Manufacturers will reimburse ROAR for these purchases. ROAR could send the motors to the manufacturer when testing is done). In the even that a motor that is found that exceeds the wattage rating, a warning will be sent to the manufacturer and a public announcement will be made. More testing will be performed. If more than x amount (maybe 0.5%?) of motors are found exceeding the wattage limit, the motor will lose it's ROAR approval status until the manufacturer resolves the problem and the approval process is restarted and passed.
Obviously, it would be very costly for manufacturers to lose their ROAR approval status, and they would quickly learn to make sure the motors never exceed the wattage limits. They would account for their manufacturing tolerance variations and make a motors that are just shy of the limit so they would never exceed.
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.
(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."
It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Spec class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Stock class: 150 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power
This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.[/SIZE]
Yes, if a watt limit was set, then it would fill all the technical loop holes. You'll notice that HP (Watts) is the combination of torque and RPM. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about limiting RPM's.
Adrian, you have to keep the two topics separated. Cheating / local track tech'ing is one topic, and defining what motors are ROAR approved is another topic. Cheating / tech'ing is always going to be an issue regardless of rules, and it's really not applicable to this thread. If ROAR determined our motor classes by power, then it would be a step in the right direction. One step at a time.
I would love to see some dynos become more commonly available. This would certainly help make things easier. But in the meantime, it might be possible for this to work now. Let's say, ROAR announces they will start classifying motors classes by power. They announce their testing dynos will be the CE Turbo Dyno. A new rule is added: To maintain approval status for that motor, ROAR will perform random testing on any new-in-package, off-the-shelf motor, from any hobby store. (Manufacturers will reimburse ROAR for these purchases. ROAR could send the motors to the manufacturer when testing is done). In the even that a motor that is found that exceeds the wattage rating, a warning will be sent to the manufacturer and a public announcement will be made. More testing will be performed. If more than x amount (maybe 0.5%?) of motors are found exceeding the wattage limit, the motor will lose it's ROAR approval status until the manufacturer resolves the problem and the approval process is restarted and passed.
Obviously, it would be very costly for manufacturers to lose their ROAR approval status, and they would quickly learn to make sure the motors never exceed the wattage limits. They would account for their manufacturing tolerance variations and make a motors that are just shy of the limit so they would never exceed.
06-19-2007, 11:34 AM
#63
What in the world is stopping us from using dyno`s to grade the power out-put for stock motor`s ?
Its seems all to easy to me to make it happen....
Its seems all to easy to me to make it happen....
06-19-2007, 11:35 AM
#64
According to Novak's site, the 10.5/bonded generates the same number of watts as the 13.5/sintered. Anybody that's run these two motors can tell you the 10.5/bonded is significantly faster, in spite of the identical wattage rating. So, unless Novak's measurements are wrong, how can this be explained away when preaching the benefits of using wattage as the one true way to measure a motor's performance?
06-19-2007, 11:56 AM
#65
Tech Regular
There's a bunch more to an elecreic motor than just peak power. Different motors have different powerbands and different rev ranges. It's not just the peak power that makes a motor fast it's the whole RPM range (area under the curve).
As for the dyno thing, I've seen Turbodyno's go for over $400 used and they aren't available new. Use a Fantom and you add the cost of a PC. It's just plain too expensive for the tracks. And no, they shouldn't have to rely on having one racer there with a dyno each week. No two dyno's on the market match exactly even within the same brand.
It's a much better idea to lock in the hardware that matters than to worry about teching all these motors.
As for the dyno thing, I've seen Turbodyno's go for over $400 used and they aren't available new. Use a Fantom and you add the cost of a PC. It's just plain too expensive for the tracks. And no, they shouldn't have to rely on having one racer there with a dyno each week. No two dyno's on the market match exactly even within the same brand.
It's a much better idea to lock in the hardware that matters than to worry about teching all these motors.
06-19-2007, 11:59 AM
#66
As it is right now, ROAR nationals are risking the fact that we are going to see a change in the way the stock class is done. Right now we have handout motors in those classes and if brushless stock is implemented, how is this going to be done? do we force our future of racing members to have to go out and purchase a brushless speed control so that they can race the stock classes now? Do we eliminate the handout portion of the class at the Nationals? If we keep the handout policy, we will now have to raise the fee to enter into the stock class at the Nationals.... How will that be percieved by the membership who is already balking at the prices of the entries already? Alot of things AND VERY VALID questions that have to be answered before brushless is given policy to run in a stock class....
How about an ESC that is not $200.... Or a motor that is not $80? But maybe more like a motor/esc that is designed for the budget minded racer that is a good controller/motor FOR RACING and not bashing. We need to look out for the future of our sport, they are the ones that are paying for it. Don't just change the rules and expect all of them to be able to just buy new electronics. It will hurt alot of those racers in the end. You can justify the extra cost of stuff all day long by saying "Maintenance free" but the more you get down into the lower classes, the more you see a younger crowd. These are the ones that are on a tight budget to race. They cannot just go out and spend $200 on a new speed control because the rules changed. We will lose alot of racers if that happens.
Not saying I don't like brushless, but I am saying that all of this stuff needs a good hard look before it is done.
How about an ESC that is not $200.... Or a motor that is not $80? But maybe more like a motor/esc that is designed for the budget minded racer that is a good controller/motor FOR RACING and not bashing. We need to look out for the future of our sport, they are the ones that are paying for it. Don't just change the rules and expect all of them to be able to just buy new electronics. It will hurt alot of those racers in the end. You can justify the extra cost of stuff all day long by saying "Maintenance free" but the more you get down into the lower classes, the more you see a younger crowd. These are the ones that are on a tight budget to race. They cannot just go out and spend $200 on a new speed control because the rules changed. We will lose alot of racers if that happens.
Not saying I don't like brushless, but I am saying that all of this stuff needs a good hard look before it is done.
06-19-2007, 12:21 PM
#67
absolutely get rid of stock handout motors. and 19t handouts too. handout motors don't level the playing field at all, they separate the gap between sponsored drivers with motors builders and those without. if there was no handout, the sponsored drivers would get their motors built by the same guys and the average guy could go buy that same motor for a minimal ammount over the cost of a handout and it's already built and tuned. you also reduce the entry fee cost and don't have to spend the $$ up front for the actual motors.
others have suggested this before, and it sounds like a great idea: no more stock and 19t class, make them 13.5 and 10.5 bl classes and allow ROAR compliant stock and 19t motors to run with them. rules need to evolve with the technology.
others have suggested this before, and it sounds like a great idea: no more stock and 19t class, make them 13.5 and 10.5 bl classes and allow ROAR compliant stock and 19t motors to run with them. rules need to evolve with the technology.
06-19-2007, 12:32 PM
#68
Correct me if i'm wrong but the hand out motor in stock class is to give people a level playing field.
When roar switches to brushless you won't need hand out motors because everybody will already be on a level playing field. Why you ask.........Because roar WILL be working with the brushless manufactures to write some very specific rules......keeping all the spec motors very close to the same speed.
No hand out motors = lower entry fee = more people at the races
You don't have to eliminate the brushed class......you can continue to include that class untill everybody has switched over to brushless.(yes ,sooner or later everyone will be running brushless)
Roar and the RMT need to be proactive on this topic. I would hate to see you take one step forward (rmt) and two steps backward(drop the ball on brushless)
When roar switches to brushless you won't need hand out motors because everybody will already be on a level playing field. Why you ask.........Because roar WILL be working with the brushless manufactures to write some very specific rules......keeping all the spec motors very close to the same speed.
No hand out motors = lower entry fee = more people at the races
You don't have to eliminate the brushed class......you can continue to include that class untill everybody has switched over to brushless.(yes ,sooner or later everyone will be running brushless)
Roar and the RMT need to be proactive on this topic. I would hate to see you take one step forward (rmt) and two steps backward(drop the ball on brushless)
06-19-2007, 12:51 PM
#69
I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.
(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."
It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Spec class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Stock class: 150 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power
This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.
Yes, if a watt limit was set, then it would fill all the technical loop holes. You'll notice that HP (Watts) is the combination of torque and RPM. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about limiting RPM's.
Adrian, you have to keep the two topics separated. Cheating / local track tech'ing is one topic, and defining what motors are ROAR approved is another topic. Cheating / tech'ing is always going to be an issue regardless of rules, and it's really not applicable to this thread. If ROAR determined our motor classes by power, then it would be a step in the right direction. One step at a time.
I would love to see some dynos become more commonly available. This would certainly help make things easier. But in the meantime, it might be possible for this to work now. Let's say, ROAR announces they will start classifying motors classes by power. They announce their testing dynos will be the CE Turbo Dyno. A new rule is added: To maintain approval status for that motor, ROAR will perform random testing on any new-in-package, off-the-shelf motor, from any hobby store. (Manufacturers will reimburse ROAR for these purchases. ROAR could send the motors to the manufacturer when testing is done). In the event that a motor is found that exceeds the wattage rating, a warning will be sent to the manufacturer and a public announcement will be made. More testing will be performed. If more than x amount (maybe 0.5%?) of motors are found exceeding the wattage limit, the motor will lose it's ROAR approval status until the manufacturer resolves the problem and the approval process is restarted and passed.
Obviously, it would be very costly for manufacturers to lose their ROAR approval status, and they would quickly learn to make sure the motors never exceed the wattage limits. They would account for their manufacturing tolerance variations and make a motors that are just shy of the limit so they would never exceed.
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.
(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)
HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."
It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Spec class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Stock class: 150 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power
This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.
Yes, if a watt limit was set, then it would fill all the technical loop holes. You'll notice that HP (Watts) is the combination of torque and RPM. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about limiting RPM's.
Adrian, you have to keep the two topics separated. Cheating / local track tech'ing is one topic, and defining what motors are ROAR approved is another topic. Cheating / tech'ing is always going to be an issue regardless of rules, and it's really not applicable to this thread. If ROAR determined our motor classes by power, then it would be a step in the right direction. One step at a time.
I would love to see some dynos become more commonly available. This would certainly help make things easier. But in the meantime, it might be possible for this to work now. Let's say, ROAR announces they will start classifying motors classes by power. They announce their testing dynos will be the CE Turbo Dyno. A new rule is added: To maintain approval status for that motor, ROAR will perform random testing on any new-in-package, off-the-shelf motor, from any hobby store. (Manufacturers will reimburse ROAR for these purchases. ROAR could send the motors to the manufacturer when testing is done). In the event that a motor is found that exceeds the wattage rating, a warning will be sent to the manufacturer and a public announcement will be made. More testing will be performed. If more than x amount (maybe 0.5%?) of motors are found exceeding the wattage limit, the motor will lose it's ROAR approval status until the manufacturer resolves the problem and the approval process is restarted and passed.
Obviously, it would be very costly for manufacturers to lose their ROAR approval status, and they would quickly learn to make sure the motors never exceed the wattage limits. They would account for their manufacturing tolerance variations and make a motors that are just shy of the limit so they would never exceed.
I agree with the power being the limiting factor, but I also think there need to be construction rules to ensure that motors are not modified in some way.
Skiddins
06-19-2007, 12:55 PM
#70
if motor power is regulated then the battery wars will be back on in full force.
what's next, a spec chassis?
this is a comptetive hobby, not childrens soccer. some people will go faster than others. some people will be better drivers than others. some people will spend more $$ than others. even in the stock class.
what's next, a spec chassis?
this is a comptetive hobby, not childrens soccer. some people will go faster than others. some people will be better drivers than others. some people will spend more $$ than others. even in the stock class.
06-19-2007, 01:00 PM
#72
Correct me if i'm wrong but the hand out motor in stock class is to give people a level playing field.
When roar switches to brushless you won't need hand out motors because everybody will already be on a level playing field. Why you ask.........Because roar WILL be working with the brushless manufactures to write some very specific rules......keeping all the spec motors very close to the same speed.
No hand out motors = lower entry fee = more people at the races
You don't have to eliminate the brushed class......you can continue to include that class untill everybody has switched over to brushless.(yes ,sooner or later everyone will be running brushless)
Roar and the RMT need to be proactive on this topic. I would hate to see you take one step forward (rmt) and two steps backward(drop the ball on brushless)
When roar switches to brushless you won't need hand out motors because everybody will already be on a level playing field. Why you ask.........Because roar WILL be working with the brushless manufactures to write some very specific rules......keeping all the spec motors very close to the same speed.
No hand out motors = lower entry fee = more people at the races
You don't have to eliminate the brushed class......you can continue to include that class untill everybody has switched over to brushless.(yes ,sooner or later everyone will be running brushless)
Roar and the RMT need to be proactive on this topic. I would hate to see you take one step forward (rmt) and two steps backward(drop the ball on brushless)
The class needs to be slowed down, not faster IMO.
06-19-2007, 01:18 PM
#73
Lets go back in time 6 or 7 years ago.....if a guy was to show up with a stock motor from 2007 all the stock racers would say "Take a look at them going down the straight, take a look at them coming out of a corner.... They are clearly too fast to be called a "Stock"
Guess what.........equipment gets faster all the time. A 13.5 system is .2 -.4 seconds a lap faster....depending on track size. Thats not that much faster
If you feel cars are too fast already why don't you propose a 5 cell limit or slowing down the existing stock motors.
Guess what.........equipment gets faster all the time. A 13.5 system is .2 -.4 seconds a lap faster....depending on track size. Thats not that much faster
If you feel cars are too fast already why don't you propose a 5 cell limit or slowing down the existing stock motors.
06-19-2007, 01:31 PM
#74
James, i like what i see there, but we don't need 5 motor classes, 3 at most. spec (what stock used to be) whatever you want to call the thing in the middle, and open/mod..
Russ, you say that like there is no battery war now... it's not like they will be MORE important...
handout motors have never leveled the playing field.. it just allowed guys with dynos and cases of brushes and springs and lathes and the money to buy 5 handouts the oportunity to really shine.. meanwhile the guy on a budget has to buy a new "Dud" every time they have to buy a handout.. why do you think they put that box next to how many motors you want on the entry form?
Russ, you say that like there is no battery war now... it's not like they will be MORE important...
handout motors have never leveled the playing field.. it just allowed guys with dynos and cases of brushes and springs and lathes and the money to buy 5 handouts the oportunity to really shine.. meanwhile the guy on a budget has to buy a new "Dud" every time they have to buy a handout.. why do you think they put that box next to how many motors you want on the entry form?
06-19-2007, 01:33 PM
#75
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."
I have always said...if I dyno 2 motors and one has 15,000 rpm's and 150 watts (just random numbers)
and the other had 20,000 rpm's and 130 watts...
I'm running the BIGGEST POWER HOUSE motor...I can gear to the RPM and it WILL have the power to pull it.
The higher RPM motor w/ lower power may be great coming off a corner in a 1/12th scale car that needs more quick acceleration, but if you need TOP END - I WANT POWER.
as for the Brushless/Brushed debate...I am one of the advocates for eliminating some of the brushed classes (In name) and allowing brushed motors to run WITH brushless motors (ie: a 13.5 class would allow STOCK motors...but the STOCK motor would probably be at a DISADVANTAGE on most tracks)
I hope a few of you will look at the new 17.5 motor from NOVAK - put it in a TC and GeAR IT TO THE MOOON and see how it runs compared to stock.
Everything I've seen shows the 13.5 motor being faster than STOCK on all track surfaces. Now that being said - the LAP TIMES may not show it so much on some tracks do to the size of the tracks..but watch them on the straight aways.
We all know a TOP Tier driver with a BRUSHED MOTOR will most likely outperform a MID level driver with a better B/L motor.
For anyone to think that even if we had 100% 'equal' motors..that the competition would be EQUAL is living in a cloud.
DRIVER & CAR SET UP just becomes even that much more important...
as far as HANDOUT STOCK type motors go, I have always felt that a HANDOUT motor benefitted a guy who was a MOTOR GEEK or had a MOTOR TUNER available a whole lot more than the common HOBBIEST who just wants to strap a motor in the car and race.