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Old 06-18-2007, 03:47 PM   #121
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Heck this is an easy question, it's entertainment!!!

Why do we do this? For fun!!! Why else would you do it, the multi-million dollar contracts?

So how do we make it better? Make it more entertaining! More fun equals more people.

The Tamiya mini class is popular because it's fun. They're certainly not fast. I just got a Inferno GT with the Aston Martin body. Why? It looked cool and fun to drive.

But I've also had fun with my 1/8 on road car. Those cars are so fast you can't help but smile when it goes screaming past you.

The problem here is fun has a different definition for everyone. Some people have fun getting that last bit of power out of their motor. Some have fun just bashing around with their friends.

The trick is to get everyone together so we can support each other. That may mean sacrifice on some of our parts.

I think there are a lot of good people in this hobby. It's a matter of getting everyone on the same page.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:29 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by Ed237 View Post
The same issues that plagued indoor carpet are starting to catch up to 1/8 off road - big budgets resulting in nothing more than a declining rate of return for those making the investment. Look for 1/8 to stall out very soon.

Thatís a surprise to me. After spending 4 yrs in that class, I always thought that 1/8 offroad was the least equipment-intensive class (fresh tires will always help but a decent engine will go a long way) and highly dependent on set-up and driving skills.
Itís a very level playing field.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:47 PM   #123
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I see some similarities with 1/8 scale and touring cars. They both require a $1500 entry fee to 'level' the playing the field. Very few racers even attempt to race the same brand of buggy for more than a year or two. Some of the same problems are starting to creep in. But, maybe the 1/8 buggy class will be immune to it all the trappings.

Who would have thought that Monster Truck racing would practically dissapear 2 years ago?
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Old 06-18-2007, 11:14 PM   #124
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I've read a lot of the stuff on this thread, but skimmed over a lot as well...

I will say, some of the issues I saw addressed are SO TRUE


Race Level Intensity - too often TOP DOG 'Local Racers' make a local club race TOO INTENSE for the guy who only races for a hobby. But, because the local turnout may be small you can't really split classes and have a day of racing even worth watching.

Cost Controlled Racing - this works sometimes, but more often it fails if you try to control TOO much. CONTROLLED TIRES, BATTERIES, CHASSIS, etc. guys won't race if they also race at other tracks that Don't use this rules structure.

Brushless Motors- Love them or hate them - they WILL be the future of R/C for a lot of people...does that mean BRUSHED RACING NEEDS TO DIE?

There needs to be a LOT tighter set of standards for B/L motors than Brushed motors currently have. For years it seems brushed motors kept to a good standard, but then stock motors and the slotted rotors, and all the other weird stuff started happening... I saw some crap pulled w/ 19t motors that I have NO IDEA how or why a MOTOR builder think they should be able to get away with...

Lipo Batteries-Kind of the same as B/L Motors, these very well MAY be the future of Electric R/C Racing, but they too need to have some type of standards put in place. The group I'm involved with are working on exlusively using the sealed type batteries (the ones in a plastic case) Not as much from a 'saftey' issue, but moreso as a CONTROL issue.

As Ty mentioned, guys are selling off old BRUSHED Equipment, motors, dynos, etc. at bargin basement prices. (GOOD FOR THOSE GUYS LOOKING FOR USED STUFF - whether local racers or backyard bashers)

I admit, I sold my TURBODYNO 45 for less than $500.00, when a year earlier I could have easily got over $700.00, but I bought 4 USED B/L systems and LOVE THEM - and the DYNO spent 99% of the last 3 years...sitting on a shelf.

THE FUTURE GROWTH in R/C hasn't changed in the 22 years I've been racing...WE the RACERS need to recruit.

Races need to be SEEN by the public,

Local Clubs need to be able to have events to be able to make them SEEN.

Racers need to work on helping other drivers learn some of the little things that make them better drivers, and/or better at setting up a car. (Like steering adjustments and rates, how and where to enter a corner, how to pass or be passed...how to know and understand what the car is doing...to fix it.

NOT all races Should be "A" level or NATIONAL level type of events...and the racers at the CLUB events need to 'NOT BRING THEIR "A" Game to every race' and try to beat the other guys by 20 laps, most local club racers don't WANT to race so hard as to need a NEW set of tires every heat...or a NEW motor twice a day...etc.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:03 AM   #125
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good points swtour , me and my boys took a break about a year ago , just got to intense and time consuming (all self imposed ) to try and race with the big boys , thinking about going back , but if we do itll be at slower pace , meaning were just there for fun and entertainment , ray
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:36 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Cost Controlled Racing - this works sometimes, but more often it fails if you try to control TOO much. CONTROLLED TIRES, BATTERIES, CHASSIS, etc. guys won't race if they also race at other tracks that Don't use this rules structure.
Cost controlled racing has to be on a track by track basis. It won't work on a national level right away. That's why Trinity's street spec cars didn't work. And a spec class wouldn't be for racers who go to different tracks on a regular basis. These are probably better drivers (not quite pro level but trying to get there) who are more into the racing than anything else. A spec class would be for those who go to the one track just to have fun and not worry about having the latest and greatest stuff.

And think about this, ROAR stock is a spec class in some regards. Although many don't belong to ROAR they still insist tracks run ROAR rules, this way they know what to expect.

It's not that spec won't work, it a matter of coming up with a spec that everyone will sign on to.
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:19 AM   #127
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Default future

1/8th scale electric brushless......
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:29 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by tallyrc View Post
in august i'm likely moving back to florida and for what i spend racing my rc cars, i'll be able to buy a nice little boat to ski or fish from.. after having been in this hobby for some 20 or so years, i'll likely be decidng between the two based on what is more fun..
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:43 AM   #129
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Now that's funny.........................I don't care who you are.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:40 AM   #130
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Okay, Here I go, climbin' up on the soapbox.

When I started 20 some years ago there were ALOT more racers at the Dirt tracks, Carpet Tracks, Ovals, Roadcourses actually EVERYWHERE RC wise. I've been racing the whole time, and to be perfectly honest, it's not really any different than it was back then. Equipment is more expensive now? Yup. So is every other thing you purchase in your daily life, that's inflation. When I started racing on-road, the pits had all the same kinds of things they have in them now. Dynos (Bud's early, then later the Vantage and Tekin Dynos, etc.) High Dollar Chargers (Tekin BC210 Reflex, and if you were loaded the original Hi-Iq). A top of the line 12th scale roller was about $150, then you put a bunch of hop-ups on it to really make it top of the line and you ended up around $225, now $225 gets you all the good stuff in one box, and it's 20 YEARS LATER!! Speed Controls? good ones are still about $150, Radios? A decent FM radio can be had for less than $150, you can get a two-channel spektrum system for less than $150. Decent Chargers can be had for around $100. The point I'm making is that it doesn't actually cost anymore now than it did in the early 90's. There are too many other things for kids and adults to do these days, our competition for their attention has grown by leaps and bounds.

You want to slow the cars down? 540 motors and HPI M compound radials for the Sportsman, Novice, Amateur, or whatever it's called class. No bite, and No Rip, that'll slow 'em down. But how many people will actually run this class?

We as racers have demanded that the Industry provide us with increasingly faster products, they willingly obliged, and took our money. Now stock is faster than Mod was five years ago, and we now want to slow things down.

Speed is what brings most newbies into this hobby. What's the first thing every potential customer asks when they look at a car? "How fast does this thing go?" Jesus, I sold probaly 20 Jatos around Christmas time. Sure it's a completely undriveable bag o' ass, but it says it'll go 65+ mph right on the box, so that's what every newbie wants.

The state of racing is grim, undoubtedly, but slowing things down isn't the answer in my opinion. There's a need for comittment and dedication in any competitive endeavor, whether it be Tennis, Golf or any form of Racing. If you don't put in the time, you're not gonna excel.

What we need to do is show folks how rewarding and FUN this hobby can be, even if you don't win the A-main every week. I go to races and at most I don't even make the show, but I keep racing because I want to improve, and I appreciate the challenge. To me it isn't all about winning though, it's a social event where I get to hang with other like-minded individuals, and have a good time. Each and every main A through Z, has a winner. This is an area of the Hobby that I have NEVER seen promoted. The fast guys are always gonna be faster no matter what measures we take, they are more talented, more dedicated, or both. That doesn't mean we can't all go to the track and have a good time, racing with folks who are at our own skill level.

Let the fastest guys be serious. The second tier group, the ones at the bottom of the A, and the guys in the B every week, should be out helping the newbies, answering questions etc. And they should be doing it with a smile, and some words of encouragement. This hobby has always been fun for me, and it always will be. Now we just have to figure out how let EVERYBODY else know how much fun it is, win or lose.
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Old 06-19-2007, 11:21 AM   #131
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Speed is what brings most newbies into this hobby. What's the first thing every potential customer asks when they look at a car? "How fast does this thing go?" Jesus, I sold probaly 20 Jatos around Christmas time. Sure it's a completely undriveable bag o' ass, but it says it'll go 65+ mph right on the box, so that's what every newbie wants.
My feelings exactly. When I first started in this hobby almost twenty years ago as a 6th grader, I didn't go to the hobby shop and ask for the slowest motor they had. I bought a really fast mod motor and raced it in the sportsman class even though I could have probably turned faster laps with a stock motor.

Fast forward twenty years and quite a few of the U.S. onroad tracks are dinky little chunks of ozite that are barely big enough to run 19T so practically everyone spends a lot of time and money getting every bit of power they can get out of stock (slow) motors.
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:47 PM   #132
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I’m also in this hobby for a long time now… also began with Sanyo 1200 SC… but I have been away from rc car for about ten years because I have no more fun racing, but I make a come back some years ago with my first love, RC car.

I may be the only one to think like that… but the only thing I could see that could help is to lower the traction.

Stock class and 540 silver can does not help new racer, in fact I think it’s worst as you need to tune your motor and set-up your car perfectly to be sure that you will not loose any power at all, and you also need to have the maximum voltage that you can get from a pack… If you want to drive and have fun this is not a good class because you need to work a lot more to have a competitive car… I stop racing at my local track because they only race stock and 540 class, this class need to much preparation to have fun and be competitive.

I know almost anybody that like slow car and dream of having one.

More power does not necessarily mean faster car, if you have a low traction situation adding more power would not help… but it could be fun

What I want to tell is that, if everybody could easily have more power than what the traction would allow you to use, then the war for power is over… no need for the best battery and motor, drive train efficiency will be less important since you can not use all the power you have anyway. If you want to reduce the speed for a beginner class, harder compound tire is only what is need.

I really prefer onroad over offroad, but last winter I start racing offroad because there is a track that also think like I do, this track is at 1:30 hours from my home but it’s worth the trip. They have 3 main class, “open mod” 2wd buggy, “open mod” 2wd truck and “open mod” 4wd …. Yes all “open mod”… they also have a small stock class where all type of car or truck is allow with a stock motor, but this is really an intro class…
The track surface is hard with some dust on it so traction is on the low side, no need for the last most powerful motor or battery here so why not let everyone put what they want and it is a lot less trouble to tech. In 2wd some top driver in the A main use 5 cell ( I know one that use only 4) even if they could run more than that, new battery have no advantage over older cell… no need for the top charger and dyno. I run LiPo and brushless only because it’s trouble free, I could race 2 or 3 heat with the same pack, I could run 2 classes and still have time to relax and see some race and interact with other racer too. (Before that when I race onroad or oval stock class, I was so busy before heat cleaning and tuning motor, taking care of the battery and everything that I had never a single minute to interact with anybody and to take the time to relax a bit.)

The lower traction put the “fun factor” back for me, you need to drive and have more power than you could use… could ask for more… and it cost almost nothing to race at this place even the tire is not a big issue since newer tire does not seem to give a big advantage. And there is more and more racers at this race track, they will certainly need to expand this year to add more places in the pit.

I think that the same thing could also be done with onroad, harder spec rubber tire to lower traction a bit, ban tire traction and tire heating. Tire could be put or be give at the tech table if need (for cheater), only need 4 nuts to put tire back on.
If you need a lower speed beginner class they only need harder tire and the speed will have no choice to go down… they will put lower hp motor and less powerful battery by themselves to be able to control there car more easily.
Set-up will still be very important to find traction, but the war for power will be over, and you will not be beat by motor and battery anymore… You will still be beat by the same guys as before, but for his driving and set-up ability this time

I don’t pretend that I know how to save the rc future, but maybe it could help… anyway that is only my humble opinion and please excuse my English…

Hummmm but if it work like that… I will not sell any Motor Freezer anymore…

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Old 06-19-2007, 01:52 PM   #133
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Advertising, there is none, R/C is something you have to look for. Although we have R/C TV here in Canada on Saturdays, that's a plus.

Keep with the real trends ... DRIFTING! I started last year racing on carpet, 1/10th touring. OK, it's fun, I like it. But as a starter you are at the disadvantage of the guys that have been there for years and spent thousands. That part sucks.

With DRIFTING you are appealing to the younger crowds, equipment is less of a factor and you don't need a big expensive carpeted track. Heck, a clean parking lot or parkade with some cones and you have a drift track. Driver skill is everything.

I'm just getting into drifting and it's great.

Equipment cost is a tough pill to swallow. Even with a lot of used equipment you are looking at $2000 to start up. Not cheap. So lower cost with the same speed and handling, that would be great.

Lack of facilities makes it hard as well. Typically one indoor and one out door track is all you will find in a city. at least with drifting you can set up a track pretty much anywhere and have multiple leagues in one city.

that's my 2 cents.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:04 PM   #134
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Its not about onroad/offroad rubber/foam brushed/brushless or lipo/nimh. That stuff is all a diversion and it makes my head explode.

The are more vehicles and drivers are out there than ever but they are not racing. It would make a tremendous difference if just 1 out of every 3 bashers could get into some kind of racing.

What organizers need to be able to do is to cater to whats popular locally. Once portable and reliable timing systems are available for say $500 we could see huge growth in small clubs racing at improvised tracks that could be any under-utilized space like BMX tracks, parking lots, old baseball fields or fire halls.

If enough of you don't like how your current track is run (seems to be no shortage of that!) you can get your own club going and not loose your a$$ in the process.

Imagine 2 or 3 smaller clubs racing for a couple hours on Friday night or Sunday morning instead of having to spend all day Saturday at one large track.

Maybe the future will be smaller less organized tracks, but much more of them. Having inexpensive timing systems will be the key.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:48 PM   #135
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CMW, sorry my friend but I have to disagree with you.

I also started 20 years ago with a gold tub RC10. It had a slot car speed control. I had 2 Parma "matched" battery packs (had no idea what that meant at the time). I had a charge cord that hooked up to the car battery, and a Radio Shack voltmeter to tell me when the pack was fully charged. I was high tech! And my battery elimination circuit was a diode between the pack and the receiver.

The local dirt track on Long Island easily had well over a hundred entries on any given Sunday. You had to be good to make the A, but different people were in the A every week.

Then one day, a kid showed up with a little orange box in his car. He called it an electronic speed control, and it was made by a company called Novak. He explained how it was "more efficent" than the wiper speed controls we were using. That kid won the A main that day. Yes, he was a very good driver.

Needless to say there were many new T1 and T4 speed controls in people's cars the next week. Then came peak chargers, then came real matched batteries, then dyon's, comm lathes, and so on.

Suddenly the turnout went from a hundred to around thirty. By that time the property the track was on was sold, and the track was gone.

Although the prices have stayed consistent over the years, what it costs to remain competitive has gone up considerably. That was inevitable with each increase in technology. So that can't be helped, and most of us don't mind. Well, I mind a little.

RC racing also goes through cycles, and many downturns are caused by forces outside the hobby. Right now things look like they're in flux, some things going up, some down.

Even in your post you say racing is grim, but the way I read it you don't want to change anything. You bring up an old point about how things are spread out right now, it's called the A, B, and C mains. That only works so far. If we want to get more people into racing, we need to change racing. The way things are now isn't working.
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