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Old 04-24-2009, 10:59 AM   #91
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Hmmm,

Here's mine :









It's a sacker with Kyosho GT1/2 bits bolted on & only 1 speed. Intention here is to use it for speed runs. Target around 89mph.

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Joe Ling
I suspect you will not have much trouble reaching that target. Make sure you have plenty of room, 8 pound car hitting something at 100 mph is going to be messy.
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:02 AM   #92
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PS, I really like the Protoform body. I bet the car is rock solid at speed.
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:23 PM   #93
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Has anyone tried using the bigger B/L motors they now use for Aero? I would be interested in converting a 1/5 scale to electric and there are some really nice motors out but am not sure if they work with cars. One thing is sure they would need to have huge torque (which I understand they do).
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:29 PM   #94
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Harm, was selling a 1/5 scale "electric car" . The problem it will cost a small fortune for a really big battery and charger to run the thing. There a plenty of big motors that will power the car.
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:47 PM   #95
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I was just looking at their web site, looks like its no longer available. I couldn't find anyone who imports their cars to this side of the world either.
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:04 PM   #96
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I converted a Inferno GT into electric with a Novak conversion. It worked really well. I sold it so I could do another one with a GT 2(longer and more room for batteries.) I plan to use a Tekin RX8 speed control this time. so I can run 5s or 6s. Higher voltage is more efficient and runs cooler.
Yeah, I typically prefer Novak for on-road. This conversion became problematic since the Novak conversion did not allow room for the servo (or something). I love Neu motors and will prolly use a Tekin ESC later this summer . . .
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:28 AM   #97
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8th scale elec conversion of our Mugen MRX3. whoa now this has got potential. already into the 15.'second laps and 10 plus min run time. just need to get speedo/motor temp and gearing issues under control.

we had speedo #1 melt and smoke at the carpet track with the 3.5T motor just trying to set trim and a couple easy runs??????? probably exceeded the capacity of the speedo at 14.4v but was pulling no trigger really.

Speedo #2 with 5.5t motor well below the SeedPasion limit of 4.5t with 14.4v. ran good and made some light runs on the carpet track. I think we had a solder issue on the motor and had the B, C wires touch. we did not notice an took it to the outdoor track and made only a straight way length came to stop. I think motor/speedo is gone because of the solder short out.

Speedo #3/motor #2 5.5T ran great for short runs but we were gun shy from our past motor speedo destruction. solder fine, must go through the holes in motor tabs so the wires down move when the solder/motor gets hot. so we took it slow seeing low speedo temp on top, but the capacitors on the side of the ESC were like 130 to 140, still nervous we started going down on gearing, could tell we went to a point where that car was maxed out on the straight 2.77 ratio, we started at 2.50 went to the 2.77 went to 2.66 tried 2.61 better. Motor temp always seemed to stay around 120 130 capacitor temp around 130 140 ESC heat sink around 80 to 100.

so we went for it and went back to 2.55 and went for the test with Richard in his Nitro MRX3. WOW.... what a amazing test to see how the Elect just launches off the corner, and drives like any 8th gas car. top speed just a tiny bit down, temps on speedo same, motor temp 140. 15.'8 sec laps and just the coolest thing to watch. then at about 8 minutes the motor said enough and completely smoked and locked up,(actually it looked pretty cool) thought it may be speedo but the motor was smoked and around 210 230 degrees. the temp really must have climbed in those last couple minutes of running.... but this was an all out test with full trigger and racing with the gas car.

So I think if we can get the 4.5T motor's 4700kv opposed to 3590kv of the
5.5T and keep the speedo temp under control we will make the gas cars nervous. We are waiting for the RX8 to show up from Tekin which is rated to 6s lipo and possibly looking at some Neu motors.

Man that was a very productive and expensive test and proto type, but pretty rewarding when you pulled the trigger of that silent killer.
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Old 04-27-2009, 09:52 AM   #98
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That's a very clean job there WWoodruff!

I've dropped my motor mount aspirations to take on a more complete onroad solution.
I've attached a few jpegs of what I'm working on.

This will be a real world conversion for the Kyosho Evolva.
I'm calling it the E'volva.
It will include a new chassis, motor mount, right side stiffener, a 2 piece top deck, removable battery tray (Losi), spacers for the top deck to accomodate larger battery configurations, front shaft bearing block and 2 new belts (front and side), along with a few other components.
This will allow the racer to run most off the shelf battery packs from 2S to 6S (depending on capacity and C rating). The max battery dimensions should be about 140mm X 48mm X 46mm.
I'm working on cost quotes and the first prototype at the moment and I hope to have kits ready by the middle of summer.

The 3rd image is of an alternate belt layout that I am about 60% done with.

I'd love to hear your feedback and any suggestions you may have.
The third prototype with the alternate belt layout looks very interesting. I am not a fan of holes in the chassis for batteries. I understand why but the chassis makes a good heatsink and of course is the backbone of the whole car. A side load would be a better solution IMO. If there is room, 2 hard packs side by side in the middle.
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Old 04-27-2009, 12:38 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by MAD916 View Post
8th scale elec conversion of our Mugen MRX3. whoa now this has got potential. already into the 15.'second laps and 10 plus min run time. just need to get speedo/motor temp and gearing issues under control.

we had speedo #1 melt and smoke at the carpet track with the 3.5T motor just trying to set trim and a couple easy runs??????? probably exceeded the capacity of the speedo at 14.4v but was pulling no trigger really.

Speedo #2 with 5.5t motor well below the SeedPasion limit of 4.5t with 14.4v. ran good and made some light runs on the carpet track. I think we had a solder issue on the motor and had the B, C wires touch. we did not notice an took it to the outdoor track and made only a straight way length came to stop. I think motor/speedo is gone because of the solder short out.

Speedo #3/motor #2 5.5T ran great for short runs but we were gun shy from our past motor speedo destruction. solder fine, must go through the holes in motor tabs so the wires down move when the solder/motor gets hot. so we took it slow seeing low speedo temp on top, but the capacitors on the side of the ESC were like 130 to 140, still nervous we started going down on gearing, could tell we went to a point where that car was maxed out on the straight 2.77 ratio, we started at 2.50 went to the 2.77 went to 2.66 tried 2.61 better. Motor temp always seemed to stay around 120 130 capacitor temp around 130 140 ESC heat sink around 80 to 100.

so we went for it and went back to 2.55 and went for the test with Richard in his Nitro MRX3. WOW.... what a amazing test to see how the Elect just launches off the corner, and drives like any 8th gas car. top speed just a tiny bit down, temps on speedo same, motor temp 140. 15.'8 sec laps and just the coolest thing to watch. then at about 8 minutes the motor said enough and completely smoked and locked up,(actually it looked pretty cool) thought it may be speedo but the motor was smoked and around 210 230 degrees. the temp really must have climbed in those last couple minutes of running.... but this was an all out test with full trigger and racing with the gas car.

So I think if we can get the 4.5T motor's 4700kv opposed to 3590kv of the
5.5T and keep the speedo temp under control we will make the gas cars nervous. We are waiting for the RX8 to show up from Tekin which is rated to 6s lipo and possibly looking at some Neu motors.

Man that was a very productive and expensive test and proto type, but pretty rewarding when you pulled the trigger of that silent killer.
I have to agree these testing must be expensive (seeing you going thru $200 speedo and $100 motor per pop....). But I am glad there are ppl like yourself to keep on running this testing...I am a strong believer that the BL/LIPO conversion on 1/8th on road will be the class along with the nitro 1/8th...and I do believe eventually, the electric version is going to be faster then can provide better lap time then nitro...just won't last as long as nitro version (run time)
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Old 04-27-2009, 01:12 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by MAD916 View Post
Speedo #3/motor #2 5.5T ran great for short runs but we were gun shy from our past motor speedo destruction. solder fine, must go through the holes in motor tabs so the wires down move when the solder/motor gets hot. so we took it slow seeing low speedo temp on top, but the capacitors on the side of the ESC were like 130 to 140, still nervous we started going down on gearing, could tell we went to a point where that car was maxed out on the straight 2.77 ratio, we started at 2.50 went to the 2.77 went to 2.66 tried 2.61 better. Motor temp always seemed to stay around 120 130 capacitor temp around 130 140 ESC heat sink around 80 to 100.

so we went for it and went back to 2.55 and went for the test with Richard in his Nitro MRX3. WOW.... what a amazing test to see how the Elect just launches off the corner, and drives like any 8th gas car. top speed just a tiny bit down, temps on speedo same, motor temp 140. 15.'8 sec laps and just the coolest thing to watch. then at about 8 minutes the motor said enough and completely smoked and locked up,(actually it looked pretty cool) thought it may be speedo but the motor was smoked and around 210 230 degrees. the temp really must have climbed in those last couple minutes of running.... but this was an all out test with full trigger and racing with the gas car.

So I think if we can get the 4.5T motor's 4700kv opposed to 3590kv of the
5.5T and keep the speedo temp under control we will make the gas cars nervous. We are waiting for the RX8 to show up from Tekin which is rated to 6s lipo and possibly looking at some Neu motors.
After reading your post couple more times...I must ask you couple question and hope you can share your thought about it...

When I was told by the SpeedPassion when the team were using their 7.5 and 8.5 on their buggy...they susgested to use something around 6.5 or 5.5 for the On Road just because those motor has some monster torque and can acommandate the high RPM like the nitro on road engine...just gear it high, possible using 19T/45T just like my Serpent 2nd gearing...Now, since the SP speedo/5.5 silver arrow motor are just too hot for the on road application...have to think about using some already proven "working" speedo/motor like the NOVAK HV series with Novak HV 5.5 motor..?

Here is my thought...on Novak it listed the 5.5 has 3700 Kv vs SP's 3900 Kv...and like you have mentioned, those are "non loaded" situation and I believed they are alot less then that number when it is on the car...but the key is, I have seen PLENTY of buggy conversion using these setup (Novak Speedo/Motor) with 4S lipo without any problem...no shut down, no over heating, no burn speedo...seems like a SLOWER motor does help the speedo (or more S in lipo, but lets say we are keeping it 4S).

If you are going to gear it high (19/46T) does a slower motor like the NOVAK 5.5 be capable to make the speedo like the NITRO ON ROAD application..?

I do agree...the TEKIN RX8 does look more promising about this 1/8th on road application. But before spending the $$$$ on Tekin next, does the NOVAK version work?

I know last year, I have seen a BL conversion Mugen ran @ Toledo at the last leg of MWS...and I know that was a NOVAK HV speedo...just not sure about what motor that is. The speed of the car is slower, but NOT too far off, except the car was not setup perfectly...but I can see the car was very close to the Nitro version...

Lets keep these idea going...I can't wait to get my Serpent ready.
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Old 04-27-2009, 02:50 PM   #101
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The third prototype with the alternate belt layout looks very interesting. I am not a fan of holes in the chassis for batteries. I understand why but the chassis makes a good heatsink and of course is the backbone of the whole car. A side load would be a better solution IMO. If there is room, 2 hard packs side by side in the middle.
The idea is to centralize the batteries and get as much vertical clearance as possible. By installing the batteries from the bottom, I get an additional 4mm of clearance with the 5mm chassis. This also lowers the CG.
The battery tray will be made from 7075 aluminum anyway and will be considered part of the chassis when mounted.The opening for the batteries is not that much bigger than the one that was already there on the stock chassis with less material toward the sides.
Keep in mind, I've already been through all this stuff before with these cars.

I built and drove the MRX 3 that's on youtube just in case you had the chance to see it. It was just as fast if not faster than the nitro cars on the track, as you can see in the video.

For the guys considering the Novak HV setup, It's a decent combo and I used the 4.5 motor in my car. You will have to gear much lower than with what you may be used to with the offroad setup. I was running 16/49 on the MRX 3 with 4S lipos, it was plenty fast down the straight. I only had 2200mah and it would just do 5 minutes with these el-cheapo cells. At least I learned a lot from that project. The motor never went above 130 but the speedo would thermal from time to time but I think it was due to the batteries.
Weight is one of my biggest concerns since it not only affects handling but it will cause undue heat in the power system both from acceleration and braking. This is probably one of the big reasons why many attempts to build a competetive electric onroad 1/8 is such a challenge. The loading on the drive system is much higher and for much longer duration than in offroad due to the high traction conditions, besides,

Offroad is kids play...

If I can get the weight down enough, you might see these cars out perform their nitro counterparts even with a 2 or 3 cell lipo.:
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #102
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MAD916,
You may want to pick up an Eagletree data logger for brushless applications.
It will save you a lot of money in the long and short term.

For under $100 you can monitor all of your vital electrical parameters as well as monitor motor RPM and automatically calculate actual MPH. It has a great user interface that is completely customizable. This way you will be able to take that guesswork out of diagnosing your electrical failures as well as learn how to prevent them. It's a great tool and kept me from burning up stuff. I can say that because of this, I didn't burn a single part...knock on wood.

It's great for finding the right gearing!
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:05 PM   #103
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The idea is to centralize the batteries and get as much vertical clearance as possible. By installing the batteries from the bottom, I get an additional 4mm of clearance with the 5mm chassis. This also lowers the CG.
The battery tray will be made from 7075 aluminum anyway and will be considered part of the chassis when mounted.The opening for the batteries is not that much bigger than the one that was already there on the stock chassis with less material toward the sides.
Keep in mind, I've already been through all this stuff before with these cars.

I built and drove the MRX 3 that's on youtube just in case you had the chance to see it. It was just as fast if not faster than the nitro cars on the track, as you can see in the video.

For the guys considering the Novak HV setup, It's a decent combo and I used the 4.5 motor in my car. You will have to gear much lower than with what you may be used to with the offroad setup. I was running 16/49 on the MRX 3 with 4S lipos, it was plenty fast down the straight. I only had 2200mah and it would just do 5 minutes with these el-cheapo cells. At least I learned a lot from that project. The motor never went above 130 but the speedo would thermal from time to time but I think it was due to the batteries.
Weight is one of my biggest concerns since it not only affects handling but it will cause undue heat in the power system both from acceleration and braking. This is probably one of the big reasons why many attempts to build a competetive electric onroad 1/8 is such a challenge. The loading on the drive system is much higher and for much longer duration than in offroad due to the high traction conditions, besides,

Offroad is kids play...

If I can get the weight down enough, you might see these cars out perform their nitro counterparts even with a 2 or 3 cell lipo.:
Great info...however, why stopping you from working on the Novak HV system with 5.5 motor..? Like gearing it to 17T with 49 or even 18T just to compare lap time with the gas car...?

I think at this moment...looking for a 4.5 or even 3.5 motor on these 1/8th on road is simply impossible, the technology is not there, at least, the speedo cannot handle the heat from these fast motor. But...if the 5.5 Novak motor (or equivalent speedo motor) does indeed generate the speedo like the 1/8th nitro engine...why try to go faster?

Also, 2200 mah is so 2007....get 2 of those 25C 5000 mah and work with the 5.5...at least, if I have the time to do that, I would definitely start from that spec. And yes, I agreed with you...on road is alot harder (on throttle, rpm) on the motor/speedo versus off road. The 5.5 setup might work on off road but not necessary work on On road...might need to go down to 6.5 or even 7.5...but then we might lose the top end due to the motor speed.

Also, about your "high belt" in the middle design...very good idea, however, does that work with the LOLA type 1/8th on road body..? Or that is for TC or IGT type of a body....?

Here is 1 more question, does 6.5 or even 7.5 motor work with gearing like 18/19/20T with 47T and still able to make the speed like NITRO..?
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Old 04-27-2009, 03:34 PM   #104
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Great info...however, why stopping you from working on the Novak HV system with 5.5 motor..? Like gearing it to 17T with 49 or even 18T just to compare lap time with the gas car...?

I think at this moment...looking for a 4.5 or even 3.5 motor on these 1/8th on road is simply impossible, the technology is not there, at least, the speedo cannot handle the heat from these fast motor. But...if the 5.5 Novak motor (or equivalent speedo motor) does indeed generate the speedo like the 1/8th nitro engine...why try to go faster?

Also, 2200 mah is so 2007....get 2 of those 25C 5000 mah and work with the 5.5...at least, if I have the time to do that, I would definitely start from that spec. And yes, I agreed with you...on road is alot harder (on throttle, rpm) on the motor/speedo versus off road. The 5.5 setup might work on off road but not necessary work on On road...might need to go down to 6.5 or even 7.5...but then we might lose the top end due to the motor speed.

Also, about your "high belt" in the middle design...very good idea, however, does that work with the LOLA type 1/8th on road body..? Or that is for TC or IGT type of a body....?

Here is 1 more question, does 6.5 or even 7.5 motor work with gearing like 18/19/20T with 47T and still able to make the speed like NITRO..?
Solara,
I hate to admit it but the 4.5 is my first BL motor. I agree that the 5.5 might actually do a better job especially with a heavier car but I decided to invest in completely designing a new car from the ground up rather than buy a bunch of different motors. Not yet, at least...
I'm changing the speedo so that I can experiment with higher voltage and I may pick up one of the Neu 14 series motors since they are still around the standard 36mm diameter. Basically the rule of thumb is if you go up in KV, you need to go down in voltage and vise-versa. A 3.5 motor on 14.8v will not be very efficient since it will begin to fight against itself as the RPM gets really high.
I found that even without a load and running a 5s pack, the 4.5 would only turn about 45,000 RPM even though the spec says it should be over 70,000.
The motor simply takes more energy to overcome its own deficiencies.
This has made me a strong believer that you want to run your motor where it is most efficient not at maximum capability. Everything will last much longer and you will probably be faster.
I will be doing my future testing with a 5000mah 4s 30c pack that should fit perfectly in the new chassis.
As far as the option belt system goes, it should fit just fine under the Lola.
I still have some room to adjust the pulley height if needed.

Oh yeah, I forgot...
I did do testing with the nitro cars and the electric was just as fast if not faster than the nitro.
The car actually drove much smoother and accelerated better than my Kyosho Evolva. Great balance!
This was with the Novak 4.5 HV system and the 2200mah 20c 4s Lipo. Like I said, run time was not sufficient. I had a pro driver give it a try during the test and he said it was "Awsome and one of the best driving cars he has ever driven".

There is definately a buzz here in the bay area.
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Old 04-27-2009, 04:22 PM   #105
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Solara,
I hate to admit it but the 4.5 is my first BL motor. I agree that the 5.5 might actually do a better job especially with a heavier car but I decided to invest in completely designing a new car from the ground up rather than buy a bunch of different motors. Not yet, at least...
I'm changing the speedo so that I can experiment with higher voltage and I may pick up one of the Neu 14 series motors since they are still around the standard 36mm diameter. Basically the rule of thumb is if you go up in KV, you need to go down in voltage and vise-versa. A 3.5 motor on 14.8v will not be very efficient since it will begin to fight against itself as the RPM gets really high.
I found that even without a load and running a 5s pack, the 4.5 would only turn about 45,000 RPM even though the spec says it should be over 70,000.
The motor simply takes more energy to overcome its own deficiencies.
This has made me a strong believer that you want to run your motor where it is most efficient not at maximum capability. Everything will last much longer and you will probably be faster.
I will be doing my future testing with a 5000mah 4s 30c pack that should fit perfectly in the new chassis.
As far as the option belt system goes, it should fit just fine under the Lola.
I still have some room to adjust the pulley height if needed.

Oh yeah, I forgot...
I did do testing with the nitro cars and the electric was just as fast if not faster than the nitro.
The car actually drove much smoother and accelerated better than my Kyosho Evolva. Great balance!
This was with the Novak 4.5 HV system and the 2200mah 20c 4s Lipo. Like I said, run time was not sufficient. I had a pro driver give it a try during the test and he said it was "Awsome and one of the best driving cars he has ever driven".

There is definately a buzz here in the bay area.
Rick....this is awesome. Thanks for your info.

I am glad to see you can start working on the new 1/8th ground up....yes, you should keep the whole front and rear end of the Kyosho and work on the upper and lower chassis that is dedicated for brushless...

And after watching your youtube video over and over...I was wondering where were your LIPO batteries..? Glad to see your post here, it must be something with low MAH and you must be running 4S x 2 pallell....do you mine to tell me exact what brand of lipo are those..? By looking at the video, it look PLENTY fast already....I would love to try them....even thought I have (2) 25C 5000 mah lipo ready to go but the size of them are just not possible to fit into my Serpent unless I can CNC a special chassis with specially upper and mount the steering servo like the old SEPRENT way...kinda hate it cause I cannot mount the new dome type LOLA body from Protoform or Parma...

Anyhow, keep us inform Rick....these 1/8th ON ROAD (LOLA TYPE) need to keep it going...I can't wait to let Chicky to run one of these...LOL

One special request....do you have a higher resolution (bigger) pictures of your Evolva with those 2200 lipo mounted..? Want to get the idea how big are those lipo compare to the space I have in my Serpent...thanks,
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