so much for "not equivalent" voltages between nimh/lipo
07-18-2007, 11:32 AM
#106
Good to see this thread come back from the dead.
My main point was to show that lipos should be allowed to run with 6 cell nimh because they are not a huge performance advantage in many cases. In some other ways lipos are all that (weight/mah/ir) and others they are not (car fit/ underweight/rules/chargers/knowledge needed to use).
I love lipos for mah and convenience.
I still sometime use nimh to make racing "fair" or just to put a cycle on it to keep it useful.
Ed, I think your gains will outweigh your losses over time.
My main point was to show that lipos should be allowed to run with 6 cell nimh because they are not a huge performance advantage in many cases. In some other ways lipos are all that (weight/mah/ir) and others they are not (car fit/ underweight/rules/chargers/knowledge needed to use).
I love lipos for mah and convenience.
I still sometime use nimh to make racing "fair" or just to put a cycle on it to keep it useful.
Ed, I think your gains will outweigh your losses over time.
07-19-2007, 03:54 AM
#107
Not sure what ur prob is there dewd but i use lipo and they crap on my nimh's performance wise.
07-19-2007, 05:02 AM
#108
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I concur..
I have to be honest...I can only go by what I see....When Ray murray ran the unofficial HPi Challenge last Oct in south jersey,we reilized we would not get a large turnout....se he opened up nitro mod and electric pro to ANY type car and ANY type of run what ya brung racing,just so we could get the largest group possible......the racers running HPI cars would get certain prizes for running hpi cars and bodies....the the track was in a treated parking lot,with a 120 ft back stretch....(easily).....racers from 5 states showed up,with a variety of the best nitro and electric cars....(a few guys from 301 also).....
we had close to 30 racers in electric mod,and there were very few,if any brushless......Myself and my friend were running 2 of the 4 pro 4's that showed up(the rest x ray's and the like)......and we had Orion lipos and 4.5 BL's......
From what I could see,everyone brought there best,judging from the workstations and equipment.....I didn't check everyones voltages,charging methods,or battery types............
that being said...our pro 4s went past cars on the back stretch with no problem....racers were coming up to us in amazement,and all I heard on the drivers stand was DAMN!!!!.....
at that point,we had only had the BL's in our cars for a month...and I had never raced it outside of our tues night racing.......and we run nitro cars,so I didn't know what to expect....
but that was enough for me to be a believer.....maybe against a pro racer,who gets THE BEST voltages and motors possible the brushless would fail.....but to guys who are in the hobby supply chain,I didn't see anything close to a fight being put up against our cars..(BTW,I finished 4th,a main...)
BTW,at our tues night racing sessions,on a road railed,PT timed,parking lot CLEAN course of 150 x 120 ft ,brushless cars with lipo's are faster than the latest RB and nova powreed 720's,NT'1's,and TC3's...not to mention my r40.....
07-19-2007, 05:38 AM
#109
OK - Lets start from the beginning - this thread starts with a test that shows 1 year old NiMh performs as well as 2 month old lipo. (actually better than the 3200 lipo).
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
07-19-2007, 05:58 AM
#110
OK - Lets start from the beginning - this thread starts with a test that shows 1 year old NiMh performs as well as 2 month old lipo. (actually better than the 3200 lipo).
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
I ask that question because the only guys who I think might be at a disadvantage with lipo are the "badass" stock racers who need every little bit of voltage to make their slow motors go faster. I'm not a battery guru, but here's my two cents:
I primarily run mod truck with my lipos right now. With IB4200's, my truck feels like it's on roids during the first couple practice laps. After that, it settles down and the truck feels the same as it does with lipos for 3 - 5 minutes and then it's all downhill from there for NIMH. So in my experience, the only advantage NIMH gives me is the ability to run some really hot practice laps. And that's not really an advantage.
Last edited by Leodis; 07-19-2007 at 06:09 AM.
07-19-2007, 06:43 AM
#111
Tech Initiate
I know of my nimh have more volt at 30amp but make the same test at 60amp or 100amp and you see lipo start very faster (punch)
and i take my saddle pack with only 200g and i go very faster than any nimh setup
and i take my saddle pack with only 200g and i go very faster than any nimh setup
07-19-2007, 07:18 AM
#112
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OK - Lets start from the beginning - this thread starts with a test that shows 1 year old NiMh performs as well as 2 month old lipo. (actually better than the 3200 lipo).
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
Then everyone says, great now we have some proof that lipos are not faster than NiMh so everyone shoudl be switching soon. But, I bought mine thinking they would perform at least as well as my old NiMh, but I havent realized any performance gain, following our regular club rules - especially for weight.
I conclude that asides from saving some time on race day, I practically wasted $200 and that most other guys wont switch until the rules for weight and/or the length of races are changed (which I am all for).
Now, In return I was told I didnt do my research, was a hardcore cheater, should remove the weight and cheat, asked what my problem was cause everyone elses lipos go faster than NiMh. But the actual data suggests otherwise. Is there any data or tests that shows Lipos outperform NiMhs?
Harry, you didnt mention the rules for in the HPI challange. If they were not requiring a minumum weight, your Lipo car would have a significant advantage over the NiMh cars. And BTW, I observed a HPI Challenge race in Dayton OH in O5 or 06 and the electric cars were turning faster laps the nitro cars even with brushed motors and NiMh batteries.
Ed,I was running a big escudo body,with multiple layers of paint,and decals......without weights on the car,it weighed 1495 grams....roar min is 1525.........I think I had added weights also for that race.........
not only that,but anyone who has run an escudo body will tell you how much it slows a car down with all that down force....My car is way faster with a Mazda 6 body,than the nitro 200 mm escudo body......
also,you saw the electric cars run against r40's with older generation motors
I'm comparing them to the newest efficient transmissioned 720's and nt1's..........running the newest novas,TZ's and RB's......
brushless hauls.......and the time I don't have to spend jerking around with batterys,I spend tuning and practicing.......which,is the BIGGEST part of going fast.......
07-19-2007, 08:14 AM
#113
Question: What class did you run with the lipos?
I ask that question because the only guys who I think might be at a disadvantage with lipo are the "badass" stock racers who need every little bit of voltage to make their slow motors go faster. I'm not a battery guru, but here's my two cents:
I primarily run mod truck with my lipos right now. With IB4200's, my truck feels like it's on roids during the first couple practice laps. After that, it settles down and the truck feels the same as it does with lipos for 3 - 5 minutes and then it's all downhill from there for NIMH. So in my experience, the only advantage NIMH gives me is the ability to run some really hot practice laps. And that's not really an advantage.
I ask that question because the only guys who I think might be at a disadvantage with lipo are the "badass" stock racers who need every little bit of voltage to make their slow motors go faster. I'm not a battery guru, but here's my two cents:
I primarily run mod truck with my lipos right now. With IB4200's, my truck feels like it's on roids during the first couple practice laps. After that, it settles down and the truck feels the same as it does with lipos for 3 - 5 minutes and then it's all downhill from there for NIMH. So in my experience, the only advantage NIMH gives me is the ability to run some really hot practice laps. And that's not really an advantage.
07-19-2007, 08:17 AM
#114
Well...LOL...not to belabor the point, but you clearly DIDN'T do your homework on this deal. It's nothing personal or anything, but your "discovery" has been so thoroughly beaten to death in this forum that it verges on the ridiculous.
It's never fun when you have people point that out in public or anything, but you asked it it in public and in a very accusatory fashion -- at least from how it appeared. You kinda act like you got scammed and you couldn't be more mistaken...if you didn't avail yourself of the information that's right here, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
It's never fun when you have people point that out in public or anything, but you asked it it in public and in a very accusatory fashion -- at least from how it appeared. You kinda act like you got scammed and you couldn't be more mistaken...if you didn't avail yourself of the information that's right here, you have nobody to blame but yourself.
Last edited by Turbo Joe; 07-19-2007 at 03:51 PM.
07-19-2007, 09:17 AM
#115
When I first tried Lipo in stock (CO27) I was slower (based on laptimes) than I was with NiMH but also the motor came out cooler so I geared up and got just as fast as with my fairly new 4200... I tried 10.5 then and the same thing happened: to be equally fast with Lipo I had to throw some gear on the motor (two teeth 48dp).
this is on-road and LiMn battery.
this is on-road and LiMn battery.
07-19-2007, 09:19 AM
#116
If some of you think I'm being negative, well, you dont know me. My point is that this is about racing, not park flying or saving money. When something gives you an advantage, even a slight edge in performance, people will buy it, a lot of it, and even pay extra for it. For some reason, I thought that after the 3rd minute I would notice better performance than my opponents but that has not been realized. So, I will just have to drive better. Got it. Will do.
Last winter I was in 19t touring car and for this summer I'm back to Mod Truck (T4 GTB 6.5) after spending a few weeks playing with an 1/8 buggy. Maybe running scale messed up my throttle control somehow. My car is still quick, but I'm going to go back to my old NiMh's this weekend to compare. I dont know, maybe I'll be even slower, and switch back to lipos the following week. The date presented in this posts suggests its worth trying, anyhow.
Harry, Congrads on your results. If you beat 30 other guys that would easily put you into a different catagory of driver. I would have liked to have seen your escudo bodied brushless powered shaft driven Pro 4 at the track. Something different that also performs are rare things to see these days.
I believe that parking lots races with more relaxed rules (like the HPI challenges) will be what brings back touring car racing someday.
Last winter I was in 19t touring car and for this summer I'm back to Mod Truck (T4 GTB 6.5) after spending a few weeks playing with an 1/8 buggy. Maybe running scale messed up my throttle control somehow. My car is still quick, but I'm going to go back to my old NiMh's this weekend to compare. I dont know, maybe I'll be even slower, and switch back to lipos the following week. The date presented in this posts suggests its worth trying, anyhow.
Harry, Congrads on your results. If you beat 30 other guys that would easily put you into a different catagory of driver. I would have liked to have seen your escudo bodied brushless powered shaft driven Pro 4 at the track. Something different that also performs are rare things to see these days.
I believe that parking lots races with more relaxed rules (like the HPI challenges) will be what brings back touring car racing someday.
07-19-2007, 09:54 AM
#117
Hey Ed, why not alternate between NiMH and LiPo on the same night, with the same setup, and see where you end up on lap times? I don't know about other tracks, but ours easily changes by a few tenths between weeks. Like others have mentioned, you'll probably want to gear up a bit with the LiPo, even at the same weight.
It might also help to look at your lap times over the course of the race, and see how they vary between the two over the entire race, and not just fast lap. I find that in the last two minutes of the race, I have a lot more punch than the NiMH guys, which is especially useful in on-road racing.
It might also help to look at your lap times over the course of the race, and see how they vary between the two over the entire race, and not just fast lap. I find that in the last two minutes of the race, I have a lot more punch than the NiMH guys, which is especially useful in on-road racing.
07-19-2007, 10:03 AM
#118
I was thinking of altnerating so long as the track conditions remain consistant, it could be very usefull.
This is my results from 7/8
http://trshobbies.com/070807Round3Details.pdf
You can see that I was not able to get back down into the 25s after lap 7 while the 2 guys who finnished 1st and 2rd were still doing them. Even so, I still had a chance with 2 laps to go but made a mistake and broke on the very last lap. Thats racing.
This is my results from 7/8
http://trshobbies.com/070807Round3Details.pdf
You can see that I was not able to get back down into the 25s after lap 7 while the 2 guys who finnished 1st and 2rd were still doing them. Even so, I still had a chance with 2 laps to go but made a mistake and broke on the very last lap. Thats racing.
07-19-2007, 10:10 AM
#119
ED237
I run LiPo only now and I am still behind the power curve at my track. The main reason was tires as I was running rubber and everyone esle uses foams. i have since switched to foams and have closed the gap to were I am only one lap down. I am now working on gear my 10.5 ex. The temp was only 140 at my last race. The main two competitors use NiHM and they do have trouble dumbing at the end of the race as were I do not with M T.O 3200. I think I only have to woory now on chassis set up and driving skill with a TA 05( vs X-ray 007 and a TC5) I love the LiPo and will not go back
Rodney
I run LiPo only now and I am still behind the power curve at my track. The main reason was tires as I was running rubber and everyone esle uses foams. i have since switched to foams and have closed the gap to were I am only one lap down. I am now working on gear my 10.5 ex. The temp was only 140 at my last race. The main two competitors use NiHM and they do have trouble dumbing at the end of the race as were I do not with M T.O 3200. I think I only have to woory now on chassis set up and driving skill with a TA 05( vs X-ray 007 and a TC5) I love the LiPo and will not go back
Rodney
07-19-2007, 10:38 AM
#120
Arent lipos going to be slower because they have a lower peak than nimh let alone a ONE year old 3800 a new 4200wc would kill a lipo of pretty much any size. And the only reason a lipo would explode is if some one cut corners on the lipo cut off, I think with todays $200 charges there should lipos in main streem racing.