Eddie, Carl, and Mike....finally a polarizing issue
11-09-2006, 10:40 AM
#76
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
Originally Posted by McSmooth
Scotty, Boylan, Mr. Bill, etc can just do whatever they want, just like now.
I like what Derek is saying.......
11-09-2006, 10:40 AM
#77
anyone remember when 10t only was they rule...that lasted long....lol
more run time will force people to run higher winds or dump...that's why back when we had 2000's nobody even heard of a 7t....
We really don't care what bashers want, no offense, as they have no rules in their backyards....when I bash I run lipo....
I say mod stays all out mod as that is the point...If someone has an issue with that they can run a spec class with whatever rules they like and the people who enjoy an all out, with new tech, class can and aren't limited by the 'let's slow it down' whiners....maybe a roar official spec class
or take stock back to 540 motors....
One of the most fun thing about RC is the new tech.. I would get board and leave if it always stayed the same
more run time will force people to run higher winds or dump...that's why back when we had 2000's nobody even heard of a 7t....
We really don't care what bashers want, no offense, as they have no rules in their backyards....when I bash I run lipo....
I say mod stays all out mod as that is the point...If someone has an issue with that they can run a spec class with whatever rules they like and the people who enjoy an all out, with new tech, class can and aren't limited by the 'let's slow it down' whiners....maybe a roar official spec class
or take stock back to 540 motors....
One of the most fun thing about RC is the new tech.. I would get board and leave if it always stayed the same
11-09-2006, 10:40 AM
#78
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
Who should be responsible for the change, then? We all agree, at least, that something NEEDS to change, but what, and who structures it if it is not the major sanctioning bodies of the world?
If you don't have sanctioning structure, you wind up with what we have in dirt oval racing. Every track across the country has different rules, different classes, and racing between them is not only complicated, but costly. It's fractured and damaged, and is only now staring to right the ship. And doing that has taken the organization and development of a new governing body and race organization (because ROAR abandoned dirt oval rules and class structure years ago).
Saying there is a problem, and not offering a reasonable alternative or solution doesn't help the situation. You complain about 4/5-cell changes, but offer no other solutions...
If you don't have sanctioning structure, you wind up with what we have in dirt oval racing. Every track across the country has different rules, different classes, and racing between them is not only complicated, but costly. It's fractured and damaged, and is only now staring to right the ship. And doing that has taken the organization and development of a new governing body and race organization (because ROAR abandoned dirt oval rules and class structure years ago).
Saying there is a problem, and not offering a reasonable alternative or solution doesn't help the situation. You complain about 4/5-cell changes, but offer no other solutions...
I've actually offered my take, and solution many times, and to many manufacturers.
11-09-2006, 10:42 AM
#79
Originally Posted by Advil
But they won't....they will follow ROAR rules for the most part. We have to face the facts that like it or not, a ROAR decision on this will affect the entire industry, bashers or racers.
I like what Derek is saying.......
I like what Derek is saying.......
11-09-2006, 10:51 AM
#80
Originally Posted by DerekB
Racers tend to have tunnel vision. There is a world outside of the local track. Which some say is way more important.
How does a 5-cell pack in a race touring car effect the 15-year old kid playing with his monster truck in the front yard?
These are racing and competition rules we're talking about, right?
11-09-2006, 10:57 AM
#81
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
How does a 5-cell pack in a race touring car effect the 15-year old kid playing with his monster truck in the front yard?
These are racing and competition rules we're talking about, right?
These are racing and competition rules we're talking about, right?
The MAJORITY of the people posting don't even run mod to say it's too fast, so why argue. Stock is too fast? 19-turn too fast? Practice. If I can't make a put on a golf course, I don't make the green concave so I'm can 1-put everything.
Most of you here care only about themselves and racing. I and some others can look at a bigger picture.
Placing the blame on one item for a decline in racing is just silly. Why is nitro 1/8-scale gaining so much. Cars are faster and way over powered?
11-09-2006, 11:08 AM
#82
"take stock back to 540 motors...."
I totally agree, make rebuildable stocks a pro stock class. Everyone on here is taking a stance that suggests they know whats best for a newbie. I have yet to read one post that was made by a newbie. How about we ask a few?
It boils down to to the top 2% of racers wanting to change things up, and they get there stuff free anyway. Moving to 4 or 5 cells just means I will have to BUY More, not less. So now I have to have a 4 cell for 1/12, and 5 for TC, and 6 for offroad? Come on there's gotta be a better solution than this. I'd rather see motor limits in place to slow things down, how bout a 12t, or 14T mod class? who says you have to use a 7T? Limiting cell count will only make guys run 30 degree's of timing, change brushes every run, making special brush cuts/compounds for even more perfomance. So whats the difference betwen what we have now? Sure we will be slower for about a year till everyone figures out how to go fast again. Same thing happened in NHRA, they messed with the nitro content because speeds were getting out of hand, now look ,there going 300+ MPH Again. Lets face it, its only being human to want to go faster, and faster. Frankly the cars need to be made more durable, and maybe a little heavier wouldnt hurt either.
I totally agree, make rebuildable stocks a pro stock class. Everyone on here is taking a stance that suggests they know whats best for a newbie. I have yet to read one post that was made by a newbie. How about we ask a few?
It boils down to to the top 2% of racers wanting to change things up, and they get there stuff free anyway. Moving to 4 or 5 cells just means I will have to BUY More, not less. So now I have to have a 4 cell for 1/12, and 5 for TC, and 6 for offroad? Come on there's gotta be a better solution than this. I'd rather see motor limits in place to slow things down, how bout a 12t, or 14T mod class? who says you have to use a 7T? Limiting cell count will only make guys run 30 degree's of timing, change brushes every run, making special brush cuts/compounds for even more perfomance. So whats the difference betwen what we have now? Sure we will be slower for about a year till everyone figures out how to go fast again. Same thing happened in NHRA, they messed with the nitro content because speeds were getting out of hand, now look ,there going 300+ MPH Again. Lets face it, its only being human to want to go faster, and faster. Frankly the cars need to be made more durable, and maybe a little heavier wouldnt hurt either.
11-09-2006, 11:09 AM
#83
Originally Posted by DerekB
It affects lots of things. The industry is 6-cell based, all the packs in the hobby shop are 6, bashers and normal people run the standard, so now a hobby shop has to carry both. There are lots of things outside of 10 people going too fast at a race.
Eh, I don't buy it. I was around when there was 7-cell and 6-cell off road racing, and hobby shops carried mulitple packs without complaint. Many still also carry 4-cell packs for the 12th and oval guys, too. Does this not also happen now in spades with the multitude of brushless and lipo technology filtering into the mainstream? How is this any worse?
So, I may also confused about something here... does this 5-cell rule ONLY effect modified classes or is this a global rule for all TC classses?
I'm not quite sure why the resistance to change is so strong, but then again, I am part of the 98% mass of racers who doesn't race to win the A-main every weekend.
11-09-2006, 11:14 AM
#84
Tech Master
iTrader: (19)
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
.....but then again, I am part of the 98% mass of racers who doesn't race to win the A-main every weekend.
11-09-2006, 11:35 AM
#85
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
How does a 5-cell pack in a race touring car effect the 15-year old kid playing with his monster truck in the front yard?
These are racing and competition rules we're talking about, right?
These are racing and competition rules we're talking about, right?
It's time to put the parking lot cars back on the parking lot and the race cars back on the race track... We took cheap cars that were meant to be durable and run anywhere and made them into a monster...
11-09-2006, 11:43 AM
#86
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by vtl1180ny
It's time to put the parking lot cars back on the parking lot and the race cars back on the race track... We took cheap cars that were meant to be durable and run anywhere and made them into a monster...
I guess LiPo's, Brushless systems and DSM will all eventually go away also.
It's called evolution.
11-09-2006, 11:51 AM
#87
Originally Posted by Mongo
That was pretty ignorant.
I guess LiPo's, Brushless systems and DSM will all eventually go away also.
It's called evolution.
I guess LiPo's, Brushless systems and DSM will all eventually go away also.
It's called evolution.
We took a class that was fun and easy to get into and made it untouchable for the majority out there....
We're about to take all forms of TC and make it into a race only class.... That's wonderful for the hobby.....
11-09-2006, 11:58 AM
#88
First I want to thank Derek B. for bringing a very important often overlooked angle to this argument. I work for an international battery/motor manufacturer and I also run a track weekly for a international chassis manufacturer and do some work for them on the side. I am around racer/hobbyist on a weekly basis and R/C is my 6 day a week job.
4,5,or 2 cells will not fix any problems and infact it seems the move to less cells has brought out more frustration then the complaint it is trying to solve. I like Dereks dam comment as it is very appropriate.
Will the "Industry" make less money if we go to less cells? The answer is no so therefore will racers save money? Again no.
The nature of Sub-C batteries whether 4,5,6 will still be an expensive proposition as racers as always will push equipment and burn through cells just as fast if not faster. Why? because they can plain and simple. The cost of batteries has not gone up, just performance. I cannot say the same thing about chassis and tire costs though, both have become twice the price and half the durability.
Some cry for slower speeds, well they are already here and because nobody volunteers to run less cells or slower motors this tells me the majority does not really want it.
Will ROAR or anyone else kill Brushless or Li-Po? Maybe for their own races but not for clubs and the hobbyists which out number any national orginations by over 90 to 1. These are the customers who drive the business for the LHS and the manufacturers.
Do people race Traxxas cars in Roar events? Rarely but they still sell them by the boat loads.
I have noticed in my own little bubble of the world our guys are embracing Mini Coopers and Direct Drive cars like crazy. Those that want slower speeds and go the mini route those that don't care about speeds go for the Direct Drive. The biggest reason all have switched is cost not just because there is very little Aluminum, Ti. and Carbon Graphite but also in these classes they use less tire's as you can very easily be competative with tires that have been run for several weekends. Do they use less Batteries to go slower? Nope the Direct Drive guys will even on occation go faster then the TC guys what they do is use less motor plain and simple and it works out great for everyone. Is TC Dead? I tink not in fact we have seen a huge growth in several parts of the country however all these spots have somethign in common, a formula of Slower Brushless and Li-Po batteries. have clubs around the country tried to beat the curve and go less cells for TC racing yes and it did not have the same positive effect as the above formula.
The real issue is telling somebody who shows up to their first race they have to change out their easy to use and long lasting BL motor and Li-Po for old technology that requires constant up keep and massaging to race.
Will this make them quit the hobby? No it will just make them not race at "your" event. So in the end who loses? The racer, why? He loses his biggest need which is competition. Why because he wanted to rules to suit what he thought was his own personal need and did not realize his biggest need wasn't to make it easier for him to race but was for him to have somebody to race against.
Maybe we should have no national organization and let the regional clubs work it out and form there own group? This is what is happening anyway with the majority. Maybe the people have already spoken and those who feel they are in power need to begin to listen.
4,5,or 2 cells will not fix any problems and infact it seems the move to less cells has brought out more frustration then the complaint it is trying to solve. I like Dereks dam comment as it is very appropriate.
Will the "Industry" make less money if we go to less cells? The answer is no so therefore will racers save money? Again no.
The nature of Sub-C batteries whether 4,5,6 will still be an expensive proposition as racers as always will push equipment and burn through cells just as fast if not faster. Why? because they can plain and simple. The cost of batteries has not gone up, just performance. I cannot say the same thing about chassis and tire costs though, both have become twice the price and half the durability.
Some cry for slower speeds, well they are already here and because nobody volunteers to run less cells or slower motors this tells me the majority does not really want it.
Will ROAR or anyone else kill Brushless or Li-Po? Maybe for their own races but not for clubs and the hobbyists which out number any national orginations by over 90 to 1. These are the customers who drive the business for the LHS and the manufacturers.
Do people race Traxxas cars in Roar events? Rarely but they still sell them by the boat loads.
I have noticed in my own little bubble of the world our guys are embracing Mini Coopers and Direct Drive cars like crazy. Those that want slower speeds and go the mini route those that don't care about speeds go for the Direct Drive. The biggest reason all have switched is cost not just because there is very little Aluminum, Ti. and Carbon Graphite but also in these classes they use less tire's as you can very easily be competative with tires that have been run for several weekends. Do they use less Batteries to go slower? Nope the Direct Drive guys will even on occation go faster then the TC guys what they do is use less motor plain and simple and it works out great for everyone. Is TC Dead? I tink not in fact we have seen a huge growth in several parts of the country however all these spots have somethign in common, a formula of Slower Brushless and Li-Po batteries. have clubs around the country tried to beat the curve and go less cells for TC racing yes and it did not have the same positive effect as the above formula.
The real issue is telling somebody who shows up to their first race they have to change out their easy to use and long lasting BL motor and Li-Po for old technology that requires constant up keep and massaging to race.
Will this make them quit the hobby? No it will just make them not race at "your" event. So in the end who loses? The racer, why? He loses his biggest need which is competition. Why because he wanted to rules to suit what he thought was his own personal need and did not realize his biggest need wasn't to make it easier for him to race but was for him to have somebody to race against.
Maybe we should have no national organization and let the regional clubs work it out and form there own group? This is what is happening anyway with the majority. Maybe the people have already spoken and those who feel they are in power need to begin to listen.
11-09-2006, 12:15 PM
#89
I'm getting out of club racing for the time being.
For me, it's cost and time. The hobbies not growing because kids can't afford to race. Batteries are the biggest problem and lipos are the solution. Who starting the hobby wants to buy all that battery equipment? It's a joke! Anyone interested says to him/her self no way will I spend that much on racing toy cars. I think a 4 cell rule would be great! Most US tracks are small and can't use the speed anyway. Mods dead and it should only be a class for pro level racing. People say they are so worried about hobby costs but they don't want lipos. Don't figure. If lipos and brushless don't take off, I'm out for good. They were the only thing keeping me in the hobby. Let the companies make whatever chassis they want, but keep the stock brushless, lipos and spec rubber tires as a class. Just my opinion. lol
11-09-2006, 12:18 PM
#90
Tech Adept
vtl1180ny - I already do with no complaints... as do most of the other people I race with. I am not sure where you are, but Parking Lot Racing (PLR) is pretty strong. Yeah, we would love to have a permanent spot to race, but no one complains that we have to blow a parking lot clean in order to race.
MR. Black... You nailed in on the head with that last paragraph.
Originally Posted by MrBlack
Maybe we should have no national organization and let the regional clubs work it out and form there own group? This is what is happening anyway with the majority. Maybe the people have already spoken and those who feel they are in power need to begin to listen.