Eddie, Carl, and Mike....finally a polarizing issue
11-08-2006, 02:01 PM
#46
Tech Elite
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: MOOD;; feeling good not racing ,saving shed loads of money,lovely Tan i have aswell
Posts: 4,762
cars speed is outgrowing the excisting track layouts aswell
tracks that are built nowadays can only take so much speed
tracks that are built nowadays can only take so much speed
11-08-2006, 03:51 PM
#47
Tech Adept
Originally Posted by Scrubb
just make a separate 4 and 5 cell set of classes. why not. You guys already have stock, 19 turn, modified, asphalt, carpet with foams, carpet with rubber, pro, and sportsman classes. Might as well throw in another couple of classes and thin out the classes a little more and give the average joe's another class to get beaten in by overpopulated factory-direct customers, err, I mean sponsored drivers.
Sportsman/Intermediate/Expert/Mod. None of these classes could even fill a solid 8 car main. But, they have to run them. I think this is also a small part of the puzzle. You see it all the time. You will have 7 cars in Stock Sedan, and then you will have 5 in 19T. But turn outs are continuing to get weaker and weaker. I think Brushless has only made it worse in its current situation. It either needs to be the norm or not. Cause that winds up being a class by itself (at the stock level). But don't get me wrong I think the industry should have gone brushless a long time ago.
Some good points were made...
- Batteries to only be released once a year (or 2)
- Car manufactures limited to one product change every 2 years.(that’s a huge one since I am a Xray fan that thinks this car of the month club is getting old).
- Put a cap on a dollar value for a car.
But seriously, what can be done to bring the numbers back? How do you get people to want to run at the club level? Does Roar really have the answer, or can they really be that impactful?
I mean I agree, I think Roar in its current state is a joke. WE ALL are hopping that a change is made. But, is Roar really the answer to why the numbers are dwindling?
Seriously though... What is the answer? We are faced with it locally. At the beginning of this year we had a full field of stock sedan and a decent showing of brushless sedans. Now we are trying to figure out if we can even support a stock sedan effort.
I am sure others are in the same boat. Looks like I will be visiting the gas pumps a ton next summer.
11-08-2006, 07:26 PM
#48
track owners are too afraid to lose a customer from telling them their hybrid lipo powered car is not legal and can't be raced, and that they have to buy legal equipment. Can't really blame the track owners though, there is probably another track within 30 minutes of them that will let them run whatever is in their car. We know that tracks need those race entry fees because they are not making much money from retail sales because as soon as someone asks where to get the best price on something here on tech, 30 or so responses for internet retailers pops up immediately.
4 cells, 5 cells, or 6 cells, the hobby will adapt regardless of the few whiners in rctech. It would be pretty funny that the 1/18 classes would be running more cells than the 1/10 classes. Whats really ironic is that switching to less cells will only set the tone for 4 cell motors, lighter, more fragile, more expensive magnesium parts, lighter more delicate cars, softer, faster wearing tires, smaller more delicate electronics, all to go fast and win at all cost. Doesn't that seem like the most likely path that less cells will lead to?
Why not just use the same formula of success that off-road has - limit traction. Set a standard shore rating and a system for testing the shore rating of tires. Its fair to all manufacturers and still allows different designs and future technology.
4 cells, 5 cells, or 6 cells, the hobby will adapt regardless of the few whiners in rctech. It would be pretty funny that the 1/18 classes would be running more cells than the 1/10 classes. Whats really ironic is that switching to less cells will only set the tone for 4 cell motors, lighter, more fragile, more expensive magnesium parts, lighter more delicate cars, softer, faster wearing tires, smaller more delicate electronics, all to go fast and win at all cost. Doesn't that seem like the most likely path that less cells will lead to?
Why not just use the same formula of success that off-road has - limit traction. Set a standard shore rating and a system for testing the shore rating of tires. Its fair to all manufacturers and still allows different designs and future technology.
11-08-2006, 07:48 PM
#49
Originally Posted by Scrubb
Why not just use the same formula of success that off-road has - limit traction. Set a standard shore rating and a system for testing the shore rating of tires. Its fair to all manufacturers and still allows different designs and future technology.
Outlaw traction compounds, run spec tires and the rest will take care of itself.
No point running a 5, 6, 7t motor if you cant get the power down.
This will eliminate all the problems created by high voltage packs and low turn motors. No need to go to 4 or 5 cells.
This and maybe a longer race duration seem to be the easy answer IMO.
11-08-2006, 09:18 PM
#50
although it has a hi spool up cost, alot of new/local racers are going into the 13.5 or 4300 lipo class sedan racing. Lipos are higher voltage than the 6-cells we run now. Many are running the 3200 Carbon Orion/Peak packs and are faster than 27T/19T racers using 4200's and don't dump. so when the 4800nimh 7.2V batteries come out what will it matter in a 5min race against a 4800lipo 7.4V pack......?
as for Japan going all out to 4-cells, that's only at JRMCA events.
4 cell 12th, other than when a event rules state 4 cells...ROAR still has it on the books for 4-cell and 6 cell combined mod class. racer's option rarely excercised
4-cell oval... it did slowdown 27 & 19T but not mod. didn't reduce costs for those running 4-cell 27 & 19T. those (good drivers) usually with the best freshest packs fair the best especially on small oval tracks. Mod just ran lower turn motors, and eventually were right back where they started at. unless they run BL motors, checkout the work they do on their motors after every run. also some still run the 6-Cell pan car classes
look at NASCAR Busch series cars years ago when they ran V6's. Winston Cup series cars had V8's. it took them awhile but they got the speed up on the V6's to the point they were near as fast as a V8...but at near double the cost and failure rates. because of this it cost more to field a V6 Busch car than a V8 Winston Cup car. they all run V8's now.
okay back to TC, Sedans are bricks compared to 12th/10th pan cars and weigh more than 2wd 1/10th Buggies. with 4/5 cells, who would say you wouldn't need fans or receiver pack when running a 7T motor? the weight will still cause stress on the motor, change the rules to lighten up the car and either way, we are back to square one.
as for Japan going all out to 4-cells, that's only at JRMCA events.
4 cell 12th, other than when a event rules state 4 cells...ROAR still has it on the books for 4-cell and 6 cell combined mod class. racer's option rarely excercised
4-cell oval... it did slowdown 27 & 19T but not mod. didn't reduce costs for those running 4-cell 27 & 19T. those (good drivers) usually with the best freshest packs fair the best especially on small oval tracks. Mod just ran lower turn motors, and eventually were right back where they started at. unless they run BL motors, checkout the work they do on their motors after every run. also some still run the 6-Cell pan car classes
look at NASCAR Busch series cars years ago when they ran V6's. Winston Cup series cars had V8's. it took them awhile but they got the speed up on the V6's to the point they were near as fast as a V8...but at near double the cost and failure rates. because of this it cost more to field a V6 Busch car than a V8 Winston Cup car. they all run V8's now.
okay back to TC, Sedans are bricks compared to 12th/10th pan cars and weigh more than 2wd 1/10th Buggies. with 4/5 cells, who would say you wouldn't need fans or receiver pack when running a 7T motor? the weight will still cause stress on the motor, change the rules to lighten up the car and either way, we are back to square one.
Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 11-08-2006 at 09:28 PM.
11-08-2006, 09:22 PM
#51
[QUOTE=DerekB]SLOWING things down is not the solution, it's as much a solution to solving a dam breaking by evaporating all the water.
In 3 years do you think Novak, LRP and any other ESC manufacturer will be over-specing their ESCs? No, they build to the level of the need. IF you don't need to be able to handle 6-cells then they won't make it. We didn't ditch 7-cell because things were blowing up, it was because we raced off-road and didn't need it.[QUOTE]
Slowing down is not the solution however we went from 7 cell to 6 cell in offroad because it was to fast to drive and not needed in the modified class. That is a very interesting.
Why was it done in 1:12 from 6 to 4 cells?
In 3 years do you think Novak, LRP and any other ESC manufacturer will be over-specing their ESCs? No, they build to the level of the need. IF you don't need to be able to handle 6-cells then they won't make it. We didn't ditch 7-cell because things were blowing up, it was because we raced off-road and didn't need it.[QUOTE]
Slowing down is not the solution however we went from 7 cell to 6 cell in offroad because it was to fast to drive and not needed in the modified class. That is a very interesting.
Why was it done in 1:12 from 6 to 4 cells?
11-08-2006, 09:22 PM
#52
Originally Posted by DerekB
People aren't getting out of TC racing because it's too fast, they do it because it's too expensive in general. Cars used to be $249...now they are near $500. Why not complain about that? Instead we want to beleive that taking a cell away will do something...and it will.
.
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11-08-2006, 10:23 PM
#54
Great Topic !
Our most recent large event had over 4 times the number of racers running stock compared to modified. Why is this? I wish I had a simple answer, but can tell you that 3 years ago mod was by far the most popular class, so something must have changed?
What I am pretty sure of though, is it is NOT the cost. When I started racing in the early 80's, you HAD to run a fresh pack for each run, and they cost more in real terms than they do today, and today I can run the same pack 2 or 3 times in a day easily, and as stated previously I can buy great cells at any local hobby store rather than past days where only the elite few had great cells.
I do think limits have to be imposed for our own good. If not cells, then motors. Every other class of motor racing has restrictions, why not RC ? Are we so special? I think not. Why don't we go back to restricting motor winds to no lower than 10 turn? That would also have the added benefit of being able to run 3300, 3600, 3800 etc cells, and not need to keep upping the MAH.
There are many more points I could, and would like to add, but it seems that the more you state here, the more diluted the message can become.
So, that'll do it for my thoughts on the subject, for tonight anyway
Our most recent large event had over 4 times the number of racers running stock compared to modified. Why is this? I wish I had a simple answer, but can tell you that 3 years ago mod was by far the most popular class, so something must have changed?
What I am pretty sure of though, is it is NOT the cost. When I started racing in the early 80's, you HAD to run a fresh pack for each run, and they cost more in real terms than they do today, and today I can run the same pack 2 or 3 times in a day easily, and as stated previously I can buy great cells at any local hobby store rather than past days where only the elite few had great cells.
I do think limits have to be imposed for our own good. If not cells, then motors. Every other class of motor racing has restrictions, why not RC ? Are we so special? I think not. Why don't we go back to restricting motor winds to no lower than 10 turn? That would also have the added benefit of being able to run 3300, 3600, 3800 etc cells, and not need to keep upping the MAH.
There are many more points I could, and would like to add, but it seems that the more you state here, the more diluted the message can become.
So, that'll do it for my thoughts on the subject, for tonight anyway
11-08-2006, 10:44 PM
#55
Originally Posted by T. Hodge
And 1:8th Offroad cars cost how much?
But like I've explained to lots of manufacturers, and drivers..it's cheaper in the long run to race 1/8-scale. The cars don't break. The engines last. The tires actually last. The list of why 1/8-scale is the most popular class right now and growing really isn't a surprise to you is it Todd (BTW Todd and I are friends)...I think you need to build a kit and go run some off-road. All the sedan stress you're under is causing some math/fun problems.
Speed IS NOT THE REASON ClASSES DIE. How about we start a poll of why people switched class or ask people that used to race. It's more that RC is a fad, or a hobby which people come in and out of. All classes are also very "Fad" because it becomes popular, over done, and people leave. Remember MT racing. Bunch of yahoos raced it until pros started racing and making everybody buy single speeds, chassis, arms, everything. It went from running what you brung to who has the most expensive ride. IT wasn't because the trucks go 60.
If speed is SO important...why. Why is nitro not suffering, why are so many people buying and having fun with cars that are way to fast for them. IT IS NOT SPEED, it is durability and value.
I crash with an 1/8-scale off road and I keep it full throttle as it tumbles off a 10 foot jump and cartwheels 30 feet. I wait for it to land on it's wheels. I crash an electic TC and I hold my breath. Sure it takes more "skill" to drive a TC, but it's more fun, even on a bad day, with a buggy or truck.
As prices creep well over, funner, less expensive, less maintenance classes, people slowly go where everybody else it.
4/5-cell is not the answer. I raced 7-cell mod, I put a 7-cell in my XX and it was a rocket, but it was fun.
11-08-2006, 11:11 PM
#56
"it's cheaper in the long run to race 1/8-scale."
I have tried doing the math on this several times, and to be honest for me to race the same number of events, at the same level always works out to costing about double to race 8th scale, so I just can't see how 8th scale gas buggies can cost less than electric touring cars to run. Everything for the buggies costs more, engines, tires, etc.
But this seems to me not to be the point. Why is electric MODIFIED tc dying, especially at club level? It might just be time to stop running so damm many classes at an event? Let's all just race stock so that we can at least race as many people as possible and build the hobby back up again. This tact is working really well at my local club with more racers coming back again, as well as lots of new ones !
I have tried doing the math on this several times, and to be honest for me to race the same number of events, at the same level always works out to costing about double to race 8th scale, so I just can't see how 8th scale gas buggies can cost less than electric touring cars to run. Everything for the buggies costs more, engines, tires, etc.
But this seems to me not to be the point. Why is electric MODIFIED tc dying, especially at club level? It might just be time to stop running so damm many classes at an event? Let's all just race stock so that we can at least race as many people as possible and build the hobby back up again. This tact is working really well at my local club with more racers coming back again, as well as lots of new ones !
11-08-2006, 11:30 PM
#57
Tech Adept
Stock? Doesn't this mean that the motors are the same in each car in that class?
11-08-2006, 11:32 PM
#58
Tech Regular
Originally Posted by Scrubb
Why not just use the same formula of success that off-road has - limit traction. Set a standard shore rating and a system for testing the shore rating of tires. Its fair to all manufacturers and still allows different designs and future technology.
Don't give away the secret !!!
11-09-2006, 12:59 AM
#59
Before I get started you can find this thread about every month about what's wrong with the hobby?..how can we keep racers?.. how do we bring in the new guy? It's the Manufacturers... no, wait, it's the sanctioning body... and so on. I could cut and paste from '97 Tech Talk thread "Norrca sucks" and replace a few words here and there.
None of the growth/decline has to do with pricing or speed. It's visibility of your races and how fun you make it look. If you're a dick at the track because you can beat everybody then the new guys will race in a class far away from Mr. wannabe-mod-going to the worlds or be scared off.The new racer won't know the difference between 5-cell and what used to be the norm.
Now my real two cents (sorry Eddie, Carl, and Mike for assuming I had a voice
):
1. We used have the option of running 4-cell mod & 6-cell stock together in 1/12th. The cars were pretty equal but the track layout determined the winning choice. Despite having made the right choice the best and mistake free driver that day decided the outcome regardless of 4 or 6 cell combo. My question is why not allow a mix of battery/motor/tire based on comparable performance and have the drivers sort out who is best ( at least at the club level ). I witnessed a day of racing where one guy cheated by running brushless in a 19-turn class. Not only did he break in each heat but the speed was way beyond his abilities... the cheater.
2. Stop mixing professional drivers with club drivers. Very few real racing organizations allow paid-sponsored drivers to beat up on the local private entrants. If they do they are penalized with weight or power to balance out the results. Corvette just took on 200 lbs. in ALMS this year and still managed to win races but it allowed more competition with the Astons. Lame example but hopefully you get the point. Anyway, most National/World's racers dream of getting free stuff and quitting their job. Great for them... now back to reality of having a good time racing. A good race director / organizer can see this and make adjustments. You don't need ROAR to help make common sense decisions unless the insurance is important. ROAR hasn't done anything for the racing world I live in... can't feel it's influence for good or bad... just nothing. Sure they have my money when I make the effort to run in their races but otherwise they have little to no impact on our club racing scene.
3. I see from my cheap seat that spending more money chasing the latest and greatest usually does very little for overall performance. Especially destroying your gear pretending you'll get that extra .10th. I agree a new chassis always runs better once it's sorted out but I still run a 12L3 since tweaking is part of the game and I haven't broken all my spares yet. I can run with anyone locally as long as I choose the right tire and have a strong motor/battery to run on pace. No need to blow up going for the win. I like spending money on cool stuff too but I know in my heart it won't make me go faster.
This hobby is too trendy but really cool all at the same time. The new trend will be 5-cell. Everyone will adapt and in a year's time we will have forgotten the difference.
Intersting thread anyway.
None of the growth/decline has to do with pricing or speed. It's visibility of your races and how fun you make it look. If you're a dick at the track because you can beat everybody then the new guys will race in a class far away from Mr. wannabe-mod-going to the worlds or be scared off.The new racer won't know the difference between 5-cell and what used to be the norm.
Now my real two cents (sorry Eddie, Carl, and Mike for assuming I had a voice
):1. We used have the option of running 4-cell mod & 6-cell stock together in 1/12th. The cars were pretty equal but the track layout determined the winning choice. Despite having made the right choice the best and mistake free driver that day decided the outcome regardless of 4 or 6 cell combo. My question is why not allow a mix of battery/motor/tire based on comparable performance and have the drivers sort out who is best ( at least at the club level ). I witnessed a day of racing where one guy cheated by running brushless in a 19-turn class. Not only did he break in each heat but the speed was way beyond his abilities... the cheater.
2. Stop mixing professional drivers with club drivers. Very few real racing organizations allow paid-sponsored drivers to beat up on the local private entrants. If they do they are penalized with weight or power to balance out the results. Corvette just took on 200 lbs. in ALMS this year and still managed to win races but it allowed more competition with the Astons. Lame example but hopefully you get the point. Anyway, most National/World's racers dream of getting free stuff and quitting their job. Great for them... now back to reality of having a good time racing. A good race director / organizer can see this and make adjustments. You don't need ROAR to help make common sense decisions unless the insurance is important. ROAR hasn't done anything for the racing world I live in... can't feel it's influence for good or bad... just nothing. Sure they have my money when I make the effort to run in their races but otherwise they have little to no impact on our club racing scene.
3. I see from my cheap seat that spending more money chasing the latest and greatest usually does very little for overall performance. Especially destroying your gear pretending you'll get that extra .10th. I agree a new chassis always runs better once it's sorted out but I still run a 12L3 since tweaking is part of the game and I haven't broken all my spares yet. I can run with anyone locally as long as I choose the right tire and have a strong motor/battery to run on pace. No need to blow up going for the win. I like spending money on cool stuff too but I know in my heart it won't make me go faster.
This hobby is too trendy but really cool all at the same time. The new trend will be 5-cell. Everyone will adapt and in a year's time we will have forgotten the difference.
Intersting thread anyway.
Last edited by slcf1; 11-09-2006 at 01:09 AM. Reason: typo
11-09-2006, 01:13 AM
#60
The one nice thing about dropping cells, is it forces people to learn setup. with oval racing back in the day , we ran 6 cells, you could do much better in a race just because of thecells you had.. i know now days everyone has acces to killer cells.. But switching to 4 cell meant the cars only go so fast.. So if we wanted to be better, we had to work on setup.. I know in 4 cell stock, your setup has to be spot on.. if your stuff isnt perfect it doesnt matter what battery or motors you run..
setup is one main thing everyone needs to learn... I think 4 cell will not only slow people down, but it will make people learn, which will make it better for everyone.. you will have les people out of control, and you wont have to dodge as many people.. its will also make the transition from spec classes to regular stock easier..
I know some of you dont care about oval, but im using it as a reference because we went thorugh this already years ago..
setup is one main thing everyone needs to learn... I think 4 cell will not only slow people down, but it will make people learn, which will make it better for everyone.. you will have les people out of control, and you wont have to dodge as many people.. its will also make the transition from spec classes to regular stock easier..
I know some of you dont care about oval, but im using it as a reference because we went thorugh this already years ago..