billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

post your setups and discussion of tamiya m04 and mo4m

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

I tried to find a setup for an m04m on low grip parking lot asphault and was unsuccessful, so this is to help others: (won tcs local race twice)

1) shocks: I use tamiya gold shocks from ta03 days (new trf shocks are the same length)
a) 2 hole pistons and 25 weight associated oil front and rear.
b) front short red springs, rear short yellow springs (old tuned short springs)
c) front uptravel and downtravel limiters, down travel 4mm, uptravel 2mm
(downtravel goes inside shock, uptravel goes outside shock on shaft)
d) rear uptravel and downtravel limiters, down travel 4mm, uptravel 3mm
e) 1mm extra preload in rear left shock (to compensate for the motors weight)

the reason the front needs up and down travel limiters is to move the suspension into a higher natural position and to limit the droop (less front droop means increased on power steering) (otherwise at full suspension compression, the front tires toe in too much causing the car to push, and there is too much camber causing the tire to wear unevenly), same thing for the rear, but it is more to limit camber change

2) Gear diff in the back with .2mm 10mm spacers added to each side in addition to the standard washers and anti wear grease inside the gear diff

3) 1 degree toe out in the front (the toe out turns to neutral as the suspension is compressed in a corner)

4) 2 degree toe in blocks in the rear

5) s grips with hard foam inserts in the front (s grips must be in good shape or the car will drift on the straights), a slicks with hard foam inserts in the rear

6) sway bar in the back (modified m03 sway bars (use short plastic links on top and bottom, this makes the swaybar link shorter)

Other hop ups on the car:
m03 aluminum steering blocks (not necessary, but adds weight to the front end for more grip)
tl01 suspension shafts
full ball bearings
adjustable steering turnbuckles
m04 motor heatsink (doesn't do much, but I can put a 20 tooth into the 19 tooth setting and the heatsink keeps everything lined up)

Hope this helps somebody.
pics are below:

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

This is a pm I received with questions:

G'day,

I have the following questions regarding your setup?
What is the overall length of the shocks?
Are the front and rear shocks different lengths?
How much AW grease in the bevel gearbox?
What body do you use?
Do you use universals in the car and which universals?
for the rear left shock is there 5mm down travel internally?

I purchased a box of mini spares, here in Australia and inside is an MO4M, which needs abit of work. I also have a MO2M, which is new and I converted back to a MO1. I still have the original BMW roadster shell unpainted and a Mercedes Benz SLK shell.

I really want to get this car going. Do you run the 20 tooth pinion with sport tuned motor?

Here in Oz we run our MO3's with the sport tuned motor and 20 tooth pinion all the time. This is the TCS standard. I don't know if you have battery limits, but we can also run IB4200's in Mini.

I have never driven a MO4M, so I am looking forward to restoring this car and giving it a go. I believe this will help me to have better throttle control, due to rear wheel drive only.There are very few MO4's racing as they are not welcome in Mini at any of the tracks. If you were to run, then your results are not counted towards point score.

Hope to hear back. Sorry for the long PM.

Cheers.

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

Hi,

a) front shocks are 57mm in length, rear are 59mm in length
b) you should use enough to coat the gears. The diff is being "tightened" by the extra washers in it
c) mazda miata, the other bodies available for the m04m are the old tamiya honda and the alpha romeo
d) I use universals (in the back obviously,) but I don't think they are necessary
e) I'm not sure about the internal down travel without taking the shock apart, but the original setup had the height of the spacers that go inside the shock

f) you can use the same 21 tooth pinion for the sport tuned black motor. The m04 gearing is 17,19,21, whereas the m03 gearing is 16, 18, 20.

In terms of speed, you can put a worn 20 tooth pinion into the 19 tooth hole for the m04m, this should equal the speed of the m03. In general, the m03 will be faster on a shorter track with sharp turns, whereas the m04 will excel on a large track with flowing corners.

In terms of batteries, the more capacity, the heavier the battery. Generally the minis use less than 1/2 of a 3300 pack during a 5 minute race, so capacity is not a problem. The newer batteries do have better voltage, but that is somewhat biased because they have higher capacity (200 second discharge at 1.18 is the same as 300 second discharge at 1.19 (the second battery can maintain its voltage for a longer time.))

Good Luck.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

Where are you guys running your cars(prepaired outdoor, parkinglot, indoor)? I run at the Tamiya prepped outdoor track in Cali, and I have either gotten the car to slid around or push like no other. I know the chassis is fickle, but I have never gotten anything to come close to my liking.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

I am trying to build my shocks like yours but don't know what the travel limiters are. Could you show me or give me the Tamiya part number?

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

the limiters are the black plastic washers that come with the shocks (they look like a very thick washer.)

I have run the m04m on a very high traction indoor aspault track which should be somewhat similar to the tamiya track. The key to stable running is to use the rear 2' toe in blocks (increases rear traction) if the rear end is sliding around, and make sure you are using m or s grip front tires that are not too worn. The newer the tires, the more stable the car runs. If the rear end is sliding on acceleration, you can also go to A slicks in the rear with the hard foam inserts.

The chassis is very finicky and will most likely not run as stable as the m03, but you can get it to run well. And remember, you run m04's against other m04's, so they all have the disadvantages.

If your car is bouncing around, or hopping in the corners, go to a firmer spring in the end that is hopping. You can think of hopping as having too much traction, breaking that traction, and then starting the cycle again. The firmer spring will lower the traction on that end and let the rear rotate better.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

What type oil did you use on the higher traction track? Did you ever try using a thicker oil in the front than the rear? I was thinking 40wt all around with the 2 hole piston.

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

At the high grip track I was using 35wt oil in the front and back. You can alter the weight transfer and traction by using different weight oils. At the high grip track, many cars were having traction rolling problems, so we had to use stiffer springs to reduce the traction and heavier oil to counteract the stiffer springs.

I would go to heavier springs and oil under 2 conditions: much more traction and a very smooth track, otherwise the rear will hop on bumps and ruts.

Swaybars are also important because they let you use lighter springs for better acceleration and traction, and still reduce corner traction to prevent rolling. For the m04m I would start with lighter oil and springs and swaybars, and slowly increase the springs first, then the oil to better match the springs.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

Do you have any pics of your M04? What spacers do you use on the top of the springs?

AWK

iTrader: (9)

Forgot to ask why you run the softer springs in the front than the rear? Typically I see more people running firmer springs in the front that the rear to get it to push.

Have you ever tried to run front slicks with a foam insert AND a molded insert? Dave Beale (awesome racer) wrote an article for Tamiyausa.com about the benefits of running "overinflated" front tires on the M03. I thought these same tires would work well to help get the car to push, yet still give grip on front.

Also, have you tried running the newer style front and rear suspension (knuckles and hubs) from the new Suzuki Swift Kit?

With your suspension settings on my M04 Miata, it feels like there is no suspension travel at all. With the 2mm limiter, it now rides on that rather than the springs. Is that right?

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

springs depend on the track. The problem with the m04m is that it naturally pushes, more than the m03. There is very little weight on the front tires, so they cannot dig in well. Therefore, you want to maximize the steering of the car. I usually run a firmer spring in the back to help the back come around. The problem with this is that if the track is not smooth, the rear will bounce.

A good setup to start with on a medium to high traction track is yellows in the front and blues in the back. If the track is bumpy, go to reds in the front and yellows in the back.

In terms of spacers on the shocks, the front shocks should be more limited that the rear. On the front shocks, put about 4mm inside the shock, and 3mm on the shock shaft outside the shock. Together this removes 7mm of travel from the shock. In the rear, make it 3mm inside and 2mm outside. This gives the rear more travel to better adsorb bumps and keep power on the ground.

I also have a suzuki swift m03m. The new suspension is not different from the old suspension. You get another ackerman setting on the front hubs (plastic version of the aluminum front knuckles), and the rear hubs are similar to the hop up 2' m03/m04 hubs.

Which shocks are you using? You might need smaller spacers if you are using the super mini shocks. Also, on my m04m, the plastic shocks bind in the front. The aluminum ones work great. Remember the point of the spacers inside and outside the shock is to raise the front's suspension movement. The front tires toe in badly when the suspension is fully compressed, the spacers take the travel out of this range.

The reason to run stuffed front tires in the m03 is that they are larger and let the car run faster. In the m04, you can run the stuffed tires in the back, but the car is already pretty fast with the 21 tooth pinion.

Most have found out that setups from the m03 do not work on the m04 and vice versa.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

I am using the plastic oil filled shocks that come with the TA04s and TA05s. I have the aluminum ones, but they are on my M03. They are not binding, but like I said they are sitting on the 2mm spacers that your setups uses. This is all stitting on the desk, so I am not sure what will happen under driving conditions.

billjacobs

iTrader: (65)

have you added more preload to the front shocks to raise the suspension so it is not bottomed out? The front will be a little higher than the back.

AWK

iTrader: (9)

Yeah I went back an adjusted that. What preload spacers are you using on your car? The front is now definately higher which is a good thing with this chassis.