Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
03-09-2007, 08:18 AM
#991
Originally Posted by Pro ten Holland
Boomer, when will you dust off your L2.5?
03-09-2007, 05:01 PM
#992
We resprayed the track with fresh hot water. This made the track tacky again from the previous weekends sugar (6 days ago). I had great traction. The wide pan car was seriously fast. This should work over and over until it rains. I went from 13.7 lb to 18 lb front springs as I had too much steering. I also opened up those two vents down low in the rear spoiler area. This did tighten the car (more rear grip) late in the sweeper. Boomer explained earlier that this pulls the airstream down into the wing better (Peugeot body has similar cutouts). The airstream is driven upward by the cockpit. Here is a previously posted pic of the cutouts (slightly raggedy) on the Peugeot 905 B body.
This new pic below shows several things. First the new cutouts. Next the rear of the Peugeot body in the link just above is cut tradional pan car. The rear of my Toyota body is cut to maximize side dam area for wiggle free entry into a very high speed but bumpy sweeper. The full size Peugeot has a similar large side dam below the waist on its rear wing. I have cut new thicker side dams so they do not curl inward. The curling will reduce their effect. I have mounted them higher than stock, but I assume this is still legal as they are stock sized. The wing has a two inch spoiler chord which I measure from the spoiler base on the body to the top edge, but in a straight line, (which is contrary to standard practice), because a chord is a straight line on a segment of a circle. These plastic screws and nuts are from a set by BRP. There are just enough in the set for this wing and two side dams.
I added bump stops to my rear suspension by putting O rings between the spring seat and the shock body. This has reduced my frame contact on the straight without having to use too heavy of a rear spring. You could possibly do this on a center shock as well.
The IRS hard coated pivot balls in my current front suspension are still in good shape. When that hard coat goes I expect them to wear down very fast. I'll see. It has not been too long yet. I replaced my steering arms which had developed slop on the outside of the sweeper side to very good effect. Replace these if they get sloppy. I like them better and the car handles better with the arm not reamed. There is less slop.
John
This new pic below shows several things. First the new cutouts. Next the rear of the Peugeot body in the link just above is cut tradional pan car. The rear of my Toyota body is cut to maximize side dam area for wiggle free entry into a very high speed but bumpy sweeper. The full size Peugeot has a similar large side dam below the waist on its rear wing. I have cut new thicker side dams so they do not curl inward. The curling will reduce their effect. I have mounted them higher than stock, but I assume this is still legal as they are stock sized. The wing has a two inch spoiler chord which I measure from the spoiler base on the body to the top edge, but in a straight line, (which is contrary to standard practice), because a chord is a straight line on a segment of a circle. These plastic screws and nuts are from a set by BRP. There are just enough in the set for this wing and two side dams.
I added bump stops to my rear suspension by putting O rings between the spring seat and the shock body. This has reduced my frame contact on the straight without having to use too heavy of a rear spring. You could possibly do this on a center shock as well.
The IRS hard coated pivot balls in my current front suspension are still in good shape. When that hard coat goes I expect them to wear down very fast. I'll see. It has not been too long yet. I replaced my steering arms which had developed slop on the outside of the sweeper side to very good effect. Replace these if they get sloppy. I like them better and the car handles better with the arm not reamed. There is less slop.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-10-2007 at 08:13 PM.
03-10-2007, 04:20 PM
#993
Associated RC12 L4 Factory Team Servo Mounts
Part # ASC 4562, Blue Aluminum. Well I finally shelled out the $14 for these mounts. They are great. My front end works with them. Bump steer is nonexistant. Steering was better than ever today. I would have purchased them previosly at Stormer but they always showed back order. They came anyway. Mathijs has a similar set from Corally on his wide pan car. Good qualities: they are secured with 4 screws to the chassis. The servo does not squirm around and require constant steering trim changes. The links with a large servo saver are at the right height to eliminate bumpsteer. Ackerman is very good. Better than the mounts I used previosly.
We sprayed water on the track for the third time since the application of the sugar water (7 days ago). My traction was very good. The wide pan car was red hot today, it sliced and diced up the opposition including spec 1/8 scales.
John
Part # ASC 4562, Blue Aluminum. Well I finally shelled out the $14 for these mounts. They are great. My front end works with them. Bump steer is nonexistant. Steering was better than ever today. I would have purchased them previosly at Stormer but they always showed back order. They came anyway. Mathijs has a similar set from Corally on his wide pan car. Good qualities: they are secured with 4 screws to the chassis. The servo does not squirm around and require constant steering trim changes. The links with a large servo saver are at the right height to eliminate bumpsteer. Ackerman is very good. Better than the mounts I used previosly.
We sprayed water on the track for the third time since the application of the sugar water (7 days ago). My traction was very good. The wide pan car was red hot today, it sliced and diced up the opposition including spec 1/8 scales.
John
03-10-2007, 09:51 PM
#996
Trackdesigner71-Well yes.
I thought I would post this link about the possible new Wide pan car
http://home.comcast.net/~martylee38/235.htm
Note that when you continue to hit the 235 LMP button on the left of the links screen then several views of Martys schematic will appear followed by some photos of my current wide pan car. The schematic looks interesting. It is a combination of the wide and narrow prototypes that I have built with Martys own touches.
If you have been following other MLP threads you might have seen something that reminds me of a cat fight under the house. I wish that people that are not directly affected would just keep their nasty comments to themselves. If you have gripes about a products quality then let's back them up somehow. How about a picture. Or even a comment with some substance rather than just an insult. I have even had a nasty comment like those on Marty's Threads made on a Mikes-Hobby Shop thread in the track locator forum. Must be a better place for this rudeness than on the tracks own advertizing thread that is provided for it by the very generous RC-Tech site. Reminds me of the guys in Houston that go up and spray paint garbage over the highways signs. They are in jail now.
Keep your ugly comments to yourself. Have some courage. Talk to the person you think has harmed you face to face or by telephone. Use your real name. That will cutout all this silly rude anonymous talk. Or just be a rude impolite person somewhere else. Seems like people that are rude on my threads always have a brand new anonymous screen name. No guts at all. (none on this thread so far)
There is still hope for this wide pan car. Mikes-Hobbyshop.com is willing to stock a couple of these once they are available. They do mail order and Web order. I only post this as another possible way to get a possibly very rewarding car. My Prototype certainly is rewarding.
John Stranahan (yes that's my real name)
I thought I would post this link about the possible new Wide pan car
http://home.comcast.net/~martylee38/235.htm
Note that when you continue to hit the 235 LMP button on the left of the links screen then several views of Martys schematic will appear followed by some photos of my current wide pan car. The schematic looks interesting. It is a combination of the wide and narrow prototypes that I have built with Martys own touches.
If you have been following other MLP threads you might have seen something that reminds me of a cat fight under the house. I wish that people that are not directly affected would just keep their nasty comments to themselves. If you have gripes about a products quality then let's back them up somehow. How about a picture. Or even a comment with some substance rather than just an insult. I have even had a nasty comment like those on Marty's Threads made on a Mikes-Hobby Shop thread in the track locator forum. Must be a better place for this rudeness than on the tracks own advertizing thread that is provided for it by the very generous RC-Tech site. Reminds me of the guys in Houston that go up and spray paint garbage over the highways signs. They are in jail now.
Keep your ugly comments to yourself. Have some courage. Talk to the person you think has harmed you face to face or by telephone. Use your real name. That will cutout all this silly rude anonymous talk. Or just be a rude impolite person somewhere else. Seems like people that are rude on my threads always have a brand new anonymous screen name. No guts at all. (none on this thread so far)
There is still hope for this wide pan car. Mikes-Hobbyshop.com is willing to stock a couple of these once they are available. They do mail order and Web order. I only post this as another possible way to get a possibly very rewarding car. My Prototype certainly is rewarding.
John Stranahan (yes that's my real name)
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-11-2007 at 08:34 PM.
03-11-2007, 07:03 AM
#998
the worst thing about that marty thread is that nobody knows the truth behind any of what is going on, they are just piling on... the guy tries to make cool parts and cars and hopups for all of us, and gets killed when he falls behind or gets sick... meanwhile he is doing what we all dream of in our spare time..
03-11-2007, 10:39 AM
#999
good job
way to tell that guy how arragent its guys like that that have never done anything so they have nothing beeter to say about someone who is doing something new & positve . i told you john alot of haters out ther this guy is one of them . dont worry after the run you had yesterday your car will be known for its perfomance and new design keep up the good work and dont worry about crackers like that .and i hope that this will put a stop to all of those guys that have nothing constructive to say especialy the ones that have no grounds to stand on . and marty you keep up the awesome work you are doing i am sure you have enough support out their that a few rotten apples cant hurt you.
03-11-2007, 02:39 PM
#1000
Thanks guys.
Well the wide pan car was smoking fast again today. We used hot water again after blowing a lot of pollen off. This brought the sugar we put on 8 days ago back to tacky. The bodies and chassis were yellow with pollen but we had medium traction. No rubber bits on the bodies. Low tire wear. 90F. 3.5R Motor Temp 150F after a run.
I was solid into the 17s now. This is .5 seconds faster than my last report (2 seconds faster than the wide pan video that is earlier in the thread (the video was not with my prototype), so I have to ponder the cause of the recent gain. Normally if you adjust a good handling car you can gain maybe .1 second or .2 per lap. Once you get the oversteer/understeer in balance there are only tiny gains to be made from further ajustment. These are more important the faster you are and the less you crash. Jeff turned on the auto lap time announcement on the track so I got some times.
Front Camber rigidity
So how did I get .5 seconds. Well the only thing I have tinkered with lately is antisquat, rear ride height and front slop. I eliminated my front slop with the hardcoated IRS pivot balls and new steering arms (not reamed). Things are nice and tight. This gives the front end better cotrol over the camber of the tire. Now the actual camber is probably not that critical but if the tire is flopping back and forth on a bumpy sweeper it is soaking up traction. One clue to this flopping is rapid wear of the front suspension balls on the outside sweeper side of the car.
These next two adjustments will only be successful on a similar design but I thought I would post them anyway. Again the full size car books are spot on. Lots of rear travel, Plenty of droop required for a solid axle.
Antisquat
I increased my antisquat to a level that was limited by the length of a 1 inch screw. I raised the rear of the upper link and raised the front of the lower links to max. This was too much (over Carroll Smiths's 100% max). The lowest line to the instant center of the rear end was higher than the center of gravity. The car handled poorly. I lowered the antisquat to what I though would be 100%; instant center at the center of gravity. Previously I ran 70% which I determined with a sketch. I just eyeballed this from the side this time. Well, I got more forward traction and more cornering traction. I could apply huge power in the corners this weekend.
Rear Ride Height
Yesterday my car was really fast but the pod screws started scraping the ground toward the end. Since the pod is not really sprung I can run it really low even on a bumpy track, 3-5 mm. I raised it two millimeters with the I.R.S. Axle spacers which are nicely labeled in mm and come every .5 mm. I reset the rear main chassis ride height back to 8.5 mm to make it the same as before. I ran the rear shock collars up 2 mm. The car was not quite as good. The suspension needed extra travel especially with my rubber O-ring bump stops. I raised it up to 10.5 mm. This put the shock collars in the original position lower on the shock body. Thats high, but the car felt great again and clicked off some steady high 17's. The gas guys were all in the 18s-20s
(I also had to raise the front of the body on the chassis due to tire wear and resetting the front ride height. Just rubbing the corner of the front dam on the corners added a full second onto the lap times)
I added some new red text in a post above describing different views of Martys schematic. I thought there was only a back view. There are more including pics of my current prototype.
Well the wide pan car was smoking fast again today. We used hot water again after blowing a lot of pollen off. This brought the sugar we put on 8 days ago back to tacky. The bodies and chassis were yellow with pollen but we had medium traction. No rubber bits on the bodies. Low tire wear. 90F. 3.5R Motor Temp 150F after a run.
I was solid into the 17s now. This is .5 seconds faster than my last report (2 seconds faster than the wide pan video that is earlier in the thread (the video was not with my prototype), so I have to ponder the cause of the recent gain. Normally if you adjust a good handling car you can gain maybe .1 second or .2 per lap. Once you get the oversteer/understeer in balance there are only tiny gains to be made from further ajustment. These are more important the faster you are and the less you crash. Jeff turned on the auto lap time announcement on the track so I got some times.
Front Camber rigidity
So how did I get .5 seconds. Well the only thing I have tinkered with lately is antisquat, rear ride height and front slop. I eliminated my front slop with the hardcoated IRS pivot balls and new steering arms (not reamed). Things are nice and tight. This gives the front end better cotrol over the camber of the tire. Now the actual camber is probably not that critical but if the tire is flopping back and forth on a bumpy sweeper it is soaking up traction. One clue to this flopping is rapid wear of the front suspension balls on the outside sweeper side of the car.
These next two adjustments will only be successful on a similar design but I thought I would post them anyway. Again the full size car books are spot on. Lots of rear travel, Plenty of droop required for a solid axle.
Antisquat
I increased my antisquat to a level that was limited by the length of a 1 inch screw. I raised the rear of the upper link and raised the front of the lower links to max. This was too much (over Carroll Smiths's 100% max). The lowest line to the instant center of the rear end was higher than the center of gravity. The car handled poorly. I lowered the antisquat to what I though would be 100%; instant center at the center of gravity. Previously I ran 70% which I determined with a sketch. I just eyeballed this from the side this time. Well, I got more forward traction and more cornering traction. I could apply huge power in the corners this weekend.
Rear Ride Height
Yesterday my car was really fast but the pod screws started scraping the ground toward the end. Since the pod is not really sprung I can run it really low even on a bumpy track, 3-5 mm. I raised it two millimeters with the I.R.S. Axle spacers which are nicely labeled in mm and come every .5 mm. I reset the rear main chassis ride height back to 8.5 mm to make it the same as before. I ran the rear shock collars up 2 mm. The car was not quite as good. The suspension needed extra travel especially with my rubber O-ring bump stops. I raised it up to 10.5 mm. This put the shock collars in the original position lower on the shock body. Thats high, but the car felt great again and clicked off some steady high 17's. The gas guys were all in the 18s-20s
(I also had to raise the front of the body on the chassis due to tire wear and resetting the front ride height. Just rubbing the corner of the front dam on the corners added a full second onto the lap times)
I added some new red text in a post above describing different views of Martys schematic. I thought there was only a back view. There are more including pics of my current prototype.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-27-2007 at 08:59 PM.
03-13-2007, 04:05 PM
#1001
John, I emailed Marty about some front suspension stuff for my I Force and he told that his health was pretty poor right now, but when he got to feeling better he'd see what he could do. Doesn't sound as eveil as you'd expect from those other "boys" 
Last edited by losi nut; 03-13-2007 at 04:39 PM.
03-13-2007, 08:38 PM
#1002
Losi nut- I agree. He has had trouble that I know of on two transactions out of hundreds. That is probably a pretty average amount. Things have calmed down some.
Anyway the Wide Pan car (235 mm rear, 212 mm front, 255 mm wheelbase) is about as pefect as can be with good hardcoated IRS Pivot balls. I see no real way to improve it. Finished. It was really fast on Saturday and keeping up with the Spec Class 1/8 scales with a driver that is as good as I am (or as bad as I am anyway). On the straight as well. I will race it Sunday and get some race lap times which should be even better if I get in a chase. I have taken efforts to make sure this car conforms with Pan car rules. I think that it does. Time for a new Project. Manufacturers are welcome to the design.
235 x 290 mm, 4S LiPo, Pantoura Chassis
If you have been following the thread you know that I plan to test the new Tekin R1Pro brushless speed control, when it becomes available, with a 4S LiPo pack, (two 2S packs in series). I feel the release is imminent. I have a speed controller back ordered. Now for a suitable platform.
I ordered a 1/10 scale Parma gas Lola body for my narrow car. I thought it would be a 200 mm. Well it is not; it is 235 mm front and back and takes a wheelbase 290-300 mm. This body actually fits the more or less rare 235 mm 1/10 scale gas class. By chance my recently purchased used Pantoura Chassis is about 1 inch longer in the front than on my wide Pan car. By chance also this Mini-T blue front suspension I am working on will have no trouble stretching out to a full 235 mm front width. So that is the plan. Should be a good platform for double the voltage (with maybe a 6.5 or 4.5R motor). The rear of the axle mounted shocks on the narrow car have more mechanical advantage than the front of the axle mounted shocks. So I may use rear shocks; this will allow them to support two batteries better. This will also test this setup on a wide car. This new car probably still fits in the 1/10 pan class, except for voltage, as the width and length restrictions are rather generous. We will see.
The 1/18 scale Losi Mini-T caster blocks and steering arms did not work out as they do not turn far enough. The highly angled steering arm limits the travel. I have a set from the Associated B4 with a spindle coming. These will be a better size and have a better ackerman for a wide car. The pan car steering arm may be a drop in fit. The advantage over what I have now is no pivot balls. Slightly better shock position.
John
Anyway the Wide Pan car (235 mm rear, 212 mm front, 255 mm wheelbase) is about as pefect as can be with good hardcoated IRS Pivot balls. I see no real way to improve it. Finished. It was really fast on Saturday and keeping up with the Spec Class 1/8 scales with a driver that is as good as I am (or as bad as I am anyway). On the straight as well. I will race it Sunday and get some race lap times which should be even better if I get in a chase. I have taken efforts to make sure this car conforms with Pan car rules. I think that it does. Time for a new Project. Manufacturers are welcome to the design.
235 x 290 mm, 4S LiPo, Pantoura Chassis
If you have been following the thread you know that I plan to test the new Tekin R1Pro brushless speed control, when it becomes available, with a 4S LiPo pack, (two 2S packs in series). I feel the release is imminent. I have a speed controller back ordered. Now for a suitable platform.
I ordered a 1/10 scale Parma gas Lola body for my narrow car. I thought it would be a 200 mm. Well it is not; it is 235 mm front and back and takes a wheelbase 290-300 mm. This body actually fits the more or less rare 235 mm 1/10 scale gas class. By chance my recently purchased used Pantoura Chassis is about 1 inch longer in the front than on my wide Pan car. By chance also this Mini-T blue front suspension I am working on will have no trouble stretching out to a full 235 mm front width. So that is the plan. Should be a good platform for double the voltage (with maybe a 6.5 or 4.5R motor). The rear of the axle mounted shocks on the narrow car have more mechanical advantage than the front of the axle mounted shocks. So I may use rear shocks; this will allow them to support two batteries better. This will also test this setup on a wide car. This new car probably still fits in the 1/10 pan class, except for voltage, as the width and length restrictions are rather generous. We will see.
The 1/18 scale Losi Mini-T caster blocks and steering arms did not work out as they do not turn far enough. The highly angled steering arm limits the travel. I have a set from the Associated B4 with a spindle coming. These will be a better size and have a better ackerman for a wide car. The pan car steering arm may be a drop in fit. The advantage over what I have now is no pivot balls. Slightly better shock position.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-13-2007 at 09:11 PM.
03-14-2007, 02:23 PM
#1003
john i was wondering if you could do me a small favor if possible and if you don't mind.. with all the talk in numerous other threads about the health risks of traction compound. i want to do a tiny experiment myself and hopefully get your input as well.. for years when running offroad we've used "simple green" on our tires with great results.. so for fun i just cleaned some of my pan car tires with a dilute mixture of simple green and water, towel dried them, then reaplied some straight simple green, then towel dried that as we do with offroad tires.. to my amazement, they are rediculously sticky now... that said i am not sure when i will get to run next and rarely get the oportunity to run hot laps or back to back practice as i only get to show up on race day and practice is hard to get... like i said if you get the chance i'd love to hear your opinion.. at the least you'll be running with nice clean tires..
03-14-2007, 03:07 PM
#1004
TallyRC- I am rather sensitive to chemicals as well. Simple green is not one I can tolerate well, as the smell is very strong and causes me immediate symptoms. I have used it on rubber tires and it worked better than just a clean tire, but not as good as the New formulation of Paragon. It worked better at industrial strength to degrease the lathe when it was new. The Corrally Jack the gripper is a low odor compound that I can tolerate suprisingly well. Stormer has it in stock. It works the best on foam that I have tried. Even better than two step processes with suntan lotion (now the smell of this stuff is very pesistant). Corally Jack the Gripper TC2 does not persist and stink up your house and bag. As a chemist I can tell you that the odor is not neccesarily what does the damage to your sinuses. The low odor formulas do tend to use less aggresive chemicals; this is the help.
There is pure orange oil available in several products including Elmers Sticky Out. This does a good job of softening rubber tires. The smell is like oranges and is well tolerated, the traction is better than simple green but not as good as paragon. I have not tried it on my foams, it may work there too. I am outside now, so it is not as important to my health. I'll try some.
If you buy some Elmers sticky out this is also the best product to remove double sided tape residue so you can stick on your electronics to a clean surface. Clean with alcohol after the orange oil.
Losi Nut- Now about your I-force. Information is skimpy. How does it come with axle or not. What width are you running at front and back.
John
There is pure orange oil available in several products including Elmers Sticky Out. This does a good job of softening rubber tires. The smell is like oranges and is well tolerated, the traction is better than simple green but not as good as paragon. I have not tried it on my foams, it may work there too. I am outside now, so it is not as important to my health. I'll try some.
If you buy some Elmers sticky out this is also the best product to remove double sided tape residue so you can stick on your electronics to a clean surface. Clean with alcohol after the orange oil.
Losi Nut- Now about your I-force. Information is skimpy. How does it come with axle or not. What width are you running at front and back.
John
Last edited by John Stranahan; 03-14-2007 at 03:26 PM.
03-14-2007, 05:08 PM
#1005
looking at the MSDS the elmers contains petroleum distilates which probably explains why it may work better.. surprising that the simplegreen bothers you since it contains next to nothing in it.. maybe i'll get some of the lemon scent too... 
i'll certainly try the stickyout too..
i'll certainly try the stickyout too..