Pantoura, 1/10 Pan Car, 2S LiPo, Brushless, Tips and Tricks.
10-05-2006, 08:28 AM
#226
Thanks. Now a "chord" on a pie cut of a circle does not follow the arc but goes straight from one end of the arc to the other. That is the measurement I posted. I will look at those rules thanks for the link. I think most of my flex was the body. The Fender flairs made it less stiff. It is now supported at the front by the graphite bumper and rests on the foam bumper. The arms do flex but it takes a lot of force to bottom the chassis by pushing on the body posts. The front of the chassis does not bottom as evidenced by lack of scratches at the front. The front of the body was flexing down about 5 mm at the high speed before these changes.
YYhayyim-That Corally CCT you mentioned looks like it takes the standard 1/10 pan wheels from looking at the photo. Four bolt in the rear and small nut securing the front. I don't see any rear shocks. It does have a viscous disk damping system.
Smoking Motor- Corally C10 X- comments from the photo.
The front suspension is very different on the C10x there is a trailing anti roll beam that supports the front wheels on the C10X. I don't see side dampers or side shocks. It looks like there is a viscous disk to control side to side movement of the pod. The Pantoura comes stock with side dampeners. I changed these to side shocks. The chassis is a skeletonized two level part on the C10x. I don't see any advantage here to an equally stiff one level chassis. Maybe someone can comment more that actually has the car.
YYhayyim-That Corally CCT you mentioned looks like it takes the standard 1/10 pan wheels from looking at the photo. Four bolt in the rear and small nut securing the front. I don't see any rear shocks. It does have a viscous disk damping system.
Smoking Motor- Corally C10 X- comments from the photo.
The front suspension is very different on the C10x there is a trailing anti roll beam that supports the front wheels on the C10X. I don't see side dampers or side shocks. It looks like there is a viscous disk to control side to side movement of the pod. The Pantoura comes stock with side dampeners. I changed these to side shocks. The chassis is a skeletonized two level part on the C10x. I don't see any advantage here to an equally stiff one level chassis. Maybe someone can comment more that actually has the car.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-05-2006 at 08:40 AM.
10-05-2006, 08:36 AM
#227
Front width with Jaco wheels --> 210mm
Front width with Corally wheels --> 215mm
Rear width with Corally wheels --> 225 mm.
Have a look at the picture of my car.
The front body suppports are only millimeters away from the front suspension. I have no problems with the body hitting the ground. Just make sure the body is level with the chassis.
I also don't use any kind of foam bumper.
Front width with Corally wheels --> 215mm
Rear width with Corally wheels --> 225 mm.
Have a look at the picture of my car.
The front body suppports are only millimeters away from the front suspension. I have no problems with the body hitting the ground. Just make sure the body is level with the chassis.
I also don't use any kind of foam bumper.
10-05-2006, 08:48 AM
#228
PRO Ten: whay chassis are you running? Would you fellas please comment and compare the CCT vs the SpeedSpec from Speedmerchant? Which is a better kit to have now, especially after the Pantoura's are out. Also, what wide pan car kits are you running and which are the nice ones to get that are still available?
10-05-2006, 08:51 AM
#229
John Stranahan: it seems you're running a wider version now...why the switch? Is there a wide version kit of the Pantoura you're running or conversion kit? What's your avdive for getting a wide version pan car kit and where can you get bodies for them? What's a good wide version kit to get and where? Thanks for the input and keep up the good work...
10-05-2006, 10:44 AM
#230
Pro-ten-Holland-Thanks for the nice pic. Thanks for the measurements. Are you happy with the fit of the front tire to the body when you run the Corrally tires at 215, or do you have to trim the fender lip excessively.
Here is a pic of the old roar pan car regs. The chord length is pretty clear on the GT class with a wing. Not so clearly marked for the GTP. It does show a straight line but does not include the spoiler in the drawing. I think the drawing is probably not correct. Should be a straight line if called a chord, but I'll take into account that actual practice might be to measure the arc length.
YYHayYim- My pan car is wide now with a home-made kit. No Reason, just a hobby. I need to get close to the 1/8 scale alltime track record fast lap is all. A WIDE McAllister Nissan body is available at Stormer last time I checked. They show 2 in stock. Sold 2 since I posted it. I posted a link recently. No wide pan kits are available in the US at present. The CCT has similar front adjustable suspension like the C10X unlike the speed spec. Aparently there is no one visiting this thread that has the Corally CCT.
Darkside MotorSports is taking orders for their new Wide Pan Kit that is not available yet. From the photos of the Prototype the width may be adjustable or this may be just for the prototype. I think anyone could drill a piece of graphite plate to make their car wide, but the new rear axle is expensive. CRC might be doing the same; measuring interest in 1/10 pan. My first post of the thread has links to these suppliers, all the bodies, etc.
I think modifying your speedspec with adjustable front suspension would be the best way for you to go at present (Narrow).
Here are the specs on my car at the moment.
Length 17 3/4 inch
Height 4 5/16, there is a minumum 3 inch needed.
Width 9.25 (235 mm front and back)
Wheelbase 10 inches
Weight 40.2 ounces a little underweight.
Rear Spoiler cord 2 1/16 inch, Pretty close to this with the string method as well. Just a little over.
Side dams. In the Roar rules, a separate wing is not allowed and thus the rule states side dam (on Wing) Not allowed. The rules, on a previous page, do talk about body mounted side dams which are allowed. The rules never state how big this can be but some of the rules allow for proof of various aerodynamic aids if found on the full size version of the car. I suspect this would be up to the individual track director and at our track, good size side dams would be allowed to compensate for the uneveness of the track. No point having crashes on the straight. MY side dams are .5 inch taller than stock at the moment and stick out the back an additional .75 inch. The lower part of the dam could be put underneath the body to stiffen it. Anyway this is just academic stuff as we have no 1/10 pan car racing in the US. But if you ask manufacturers for it in sufficient numbers they will certainly make it. They certainly make every flavor of offroad vehicle you could imagine at the moment. Probably a dozen classes too many.
I notice in the GT class that you get to have a 2 level wing with side dam not attached to the body as well as a rear spoiler like on my Stilletto.
Here is a pic of the old roar pan car regs. The chord length is pretty clear on the GT class with a wing. Not so clearly marked for the GTP. It does show a straight line but does not include the spoiler in the drawing. I think the drawing is probably not correct. Should be a straight line if called a chord, but I'll take into account that actual practice might be to measure the arc length.
YYHayYim- My pan car is wide now with a home-made kit. No Reason, just a hobby. I need to get close to the 1/8 scale alltime track record fast lap is all. A WIDE McAllister Nissan body is available at Stormer last time I checked. They show 2 in stock. Sold 2 since I posted it. I posted a link recently. No wide pan kits are available in the US at present. The CCT has similar front adjustable suspension like the C10X unlike the speed spec. Aparently there is no one visiting this thread that has the Corally CCT.
Darkside MotorSports is taking orders for their new Wide Pan Kit that is not available yet. From the photos of the Prototype the width may be adjustable or this may be just for the prototype. I think anyone could drill a piece of graphite plate to make their car wide, but the new rear axle is expensive. CRC might be doing the same; measuring interest in 1/10 pan. My first post of the thread has links to these suppliers, all the bodies, etc.
I think modifying your speedspec with adjustable front suspension would be the best way for you to go at present (Narrow).
Here are the specs on my car at the moment.
Length 17 3/4 inch
Height 4 5/16, there is a minumum 3 inch needed.
Width 9.25 (235 mm front and back)
Wheelbase 10 inches
Weight 40.2 ounces a little underweight.
Rear Spoiler cord 2 1/16 inch, Pretty close to this with the string method as well. Just a little over.
Side dams. In the Roar rules, a separate wing is not allowed and thus the rule states side dam (on Wing) Not allowed. The rules, on a previous page, do talk about body mounted side dams which are allowed. The rules never state how big this can be but some of the rules allow for proof of various aerodynamic aids if found on the full size version of the car. I suspect this would be up to the individual track director and at our track, good size side dams would be allowed to compensate for the uneveness of the track. No point having crashes on the straight. MY side dams are .5 inch taller than stock at the moment and stick out the back an additional .75 inch. The lower part of the dam could be put underneath the body to stiffen it. Anyway this is just academic stuff as we have no 1/10 pan car racing in the US. But if you ask manufacturers for it in sufficient numbers they will certainly make it. They certainly make every flavor of offroad vehicle you could imagine at the moment. Probably a dozen classes too many.
I notice in the GT class that you get to have a 2 level wing with side dam not attached to the body as well as a rear spoiler like on my Stilletto.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-05-2006 at 03:17 PM.
10-05-2006, 03:43 PM
#231
CCT on the Way
Out of desperation!! Cannot take just reading the forum anymore while I wait for new axle on the SpeedSpec car. 3 weeks sidelined with the SpeedSpec car, which cannot e ven take the LIPO packs I normally use, and has forced me to run on 4 cells. Besides, the CCT seems to be a better kit than the SpeedSpec anyways, and it looks to be able to hold Orion 4800 Lipo stick packs down the middle, much like the Pantoura. the CCT looks to have a much better suspension, which the SpeedSpec desperately needs. Will test run as soon as it comes in by tues-wed next week, with Orion Lipo pack, NOvak 4.5R system, Jaco rear pink & purple front tires, and will try different TC bodies: Mazda 6, Cadillac CTS, Losi Alfa, and then my all time favorite: the Saleen S7R...lets see what happens. The test runs I had with the SpeedSpec a few weeks ago went very well, exept for the archaic suspension, which doesn't allo one to adjust camber, and causes uneven tire wear, and also the big mistake of using 200mm LOLA body. The Corally CCT with the LIPO and regular TC body should do much better and once again, compete with the TC speedsters in South Florida. Whatever happens, I will NEVER run with a LOLA body again. It just doesnt work well for these cars. It makes the car rattle, vivatre, and act funny. Very weird.
Pantoura Update: Apparatly they have been reading our forum and are happy the interest is up. They are speeding up the stocking process, and said that within 2 weeks they should be loaded.
Pantoura Update: Apparatly they have been reading our forum and are happy the interest is up. They are speeding up the stocking process, and said that within 2 weeks they should be loaded.
10-05-2006, 08:42 PM
#232
CCT Tire update
According to PRO Ten HOlland, The Corally CCT takes regular TC foam tires, meaning 26mm up front, and 30mm rear- supposedly its been designed this way, however, it can take pan car tires but we'll have to find a body that will fit?...It seems from Corally website pics that it indeed comes with S4 tires, and they seem to be regular pan car tires(4 bolt rear), and not some 30mm Tc tires...maybe one of you can clarify what this all means...PRO-TEN, can you please explain...I belive I have misunderstood you.
10-05-2006, 09:34 PM
#233
you did misunderstand. A regular rear tire for me is a regular PANCAR rear tire (I don't think in touring car terms).
The CCT takes regular S4 rear wheels, which makes the rear approx 200mm wide. With CCT-specific rear wheels, its approx 185mm wide.
My car is my own design, the X10. I took third place in our RC-Lemans racing series with it.
I have a friend, who is a retired machinist, who machines the carbon and aluminum parts for me (by hand!).
I now also have 3 friends run the same car.
I have no problems with the fit of my bodies. No need to widen them, or cut out anything exessively.
The CCT takes regular S4 rear wheels, which makes the rear approx 200mm wide. With CCT-specific rear wheels, its approx 185mm wide.
My car is my own design, the X10. I took third place in our RC-Lemans racing series with it.
I have a friend, who is a retired machinist, who machines the carbon and aluminum parts for me (by hand!).
I now also have 3 friends run the same car.
I have no problems with the fit of my bodies. No need to widen them, or cut out anything exessively.
10-05-2006, 09:49 PM
#234
Thx PRO-TEN. But according to Corally the CCT comes with S4 tires in the box, so its going to be about 200mm, instead of 185mm for CCT specific tires...at least that's what I belive corally website has on the kit info and specs on their CCT description, So maybe its made for 200mm bodies.
10-06-2006, 03:35 PM
#236
Originally Posted by John Stranahan
Side dams. In the Roar rules, a separate wing is not allowed and thus the rule states side dam (on Wing) Not allowed. The rules, on a previous page, do talk about body mounted side dams which are allowed. The rules never state how big this can be but some of the rules allow for proof of various aerodynamic aids if found on the full size version of the car. I suspect this would be up to the individual track director and at our track, good size side dams would be allowed to compensate for the uneveness of the track. No point having crashes on the straight. MY side dams are .5 inch taller than stock at the moment and stick out the back an additional .75 inch. The lower part of the dam could be put underneath the body to stiffen it. Anyway this is just academic stuff as we have no 1/10 pan car racing in the US. But if you ask manufacturers for it in sufficient numbers they will certainly make it. They certainly make every flavor of offroad vehicle you could imagine at the moment. Probably a dozen classes too many.
I notice in the GT class that you get to have a 2 level wing with side dam not attached to the body as well as a rear spoiler like on my Stilletto.
I notice in the GT class that you get to have a 2 level wing with side dam not attached to the body as well as a rear spoiler like on my Stilletto.
However, with as exagerated as the 1/12th bodies have gotten (flat plus spoiler, essentially) I don't see why bigger side dams and a specified height of additional spoiler/deflecter could be added.
With the additional wing - we had some guys try to use an additional wing and it had issues - in pushes directly down on the rear pod OR (if mounted to main chassis) it flexes enough to lose effectiveness at high speed. Neither really seemed to add value over a good body with molded spoiler (like any of the bodies we've discussed.)
We even had one guy try an "active" wing - he linked it to a servo which was tied to the speed control signal so when he grabbed full throttle, it dropped down by 20 degrees or so to lower aero drag, but as soon as he got off throttle (for infield work) it went back up.
Whatever the effectiveness in theory, it seemed to make it hard to drive since it constantly changed the aero of the car and he never could get it figured out.
Cool idea though!
10-06-2006, 06:14 PM
#237
Boomer-Thanks for the side dam and wing discussion.
YYHayyim- Why can't you get a rear axle for your speedspec.
Wide Pan Car Second Session
Track a bit cleaner but still dirty from power washing the boards. Air temp 91 F.
I made numerous changes to the wide pan car. I narrowed the front by 15 mm to 220 mm and trimmed most of the flare off the fenders. The front tires have very little vertical travel so this will probably work OK on a standard body. A little Narrower would probably suit the bodies better. I narrowed the rear by 4 mm to 231 mm. This fits the body very nicely. The rear tires which have a lot of travel can go up into the body on the bad bumps now. I supported the very front of the body with a beveled foam bumper and the graphite bumper underneath. Some support seemed to be neccesary on a 180 foot straight. This worked very well. I got no contact now on the straight except for a very occasional scrape of the Associated chassis screws near the pivot which are slightly below the graphite. I changed the center shock oil to 35 weight. This soaked up the bumps better than 40 weight. The car is traveling very smoothly down the straight now.
Results: I got a push on the sweeper. I went to .020 front springs down from .024 front springs. I lowered the front of the body down 1 mm to 4 mm by sanding down the foam. This corrected the situation. The car is very fast on the straight now and easier to drive than the narrow car in general. I'll try and take video tomorrow on the track which I will treat with sugar water. I can get lap times from the video to see if there is an improvement over the narrow car. It feels faster, also maybe 10-15 % easier to drive fast. Not quite as fast at the very end of the straight which was expected.
At the end of the session I got a 19 minute run on one pack followed by a 17.5 minute run in which I pushed a little harder! Maximum Motor temp 140 F at 17.5 minutes. The tires traction holds up better with the wide body. You slip them less.
YYHayyim- Why can't you get a rear axle for your speedspec.
Wide Pan Car Second Session
Track a bit cleaner but still dirty from power washing the boards. Air temp 91 F.
I made numerous changes to the wide pan car. I narrowed the front by 15 mm to 220 mm and trimmed most of the flare off the fenders. The front tires have very little vertical travel so this will probably work OK on a standard body. A little Narrower would probably suit the bodies better. I narrowed the rear by 4 mm to 231 mm. This fits the body very nicely. The rear tires which have a lot of travel can go up into the body on the bad bumps now. I supported the very front of the body with a beveled foam bumper and the graphite bumper underneath. Some support seemed to be neccesary on a 180 foot straight. This worked very well. I got no contact now on the straight except for a very occasional scrape of the Associated chassis screws near the pivot which are slightly below the graphite. I changed the center shock oil to 35 weight. This soaked up the bumps better than 40 weight. The car is traveling very smoothly down the straight now.
Results: I got a push on the sweeper. I went to .020 front springs down from .024 front springs. I lowered the front of the body down 1 mm to 4 mm by sanding down the foam. This corrected the situation. The car is very fast on the straight now and easier to drive than the narrow car in general. I'll try and take video tomorrow on the track which I will treat with sugar water. I can get lap times from the video to see if there is an improvement over the narrow car. It feels faster, also maybe 10-15 % easier to drive fast. Not quite as fast at the very end of the straight which was expected.
At the end of the session I got a 19 minute run on one pack followed by a 17.5 minute run in which I pushed a little harder! Maximum Motor temp 140 F at 17.5 minutes. The tires traction holds up better with the wide body. You slip them less.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-06-2006 at 07:46 PM.
10-07-2006, 06:30 PM
#238
Video Wide Pan VS Touring car
Let me set up this video a bit. We treated the track with sugar water, but only the race line. This made passing a bit difficult as we would have to get off the race line to pass. There is one young driver in the video and that would not be me. Robert drives a hotbodies cyclone. The cyclone mod motor had a fresh cut and new brushes on a 10 x 2 motor. His car will outrun the nitro car in the previous video. On an untreated track he will make a pass in about 2 laps from 30 feet behind. The major gains would be in the infield.
Lin, the videographer, runs touring cars, electric and Nitro, and was practicing today with an 1/8 scale. The first little clip consists basically of his priceless comments as my pan car went down the straight the first time to clean off the tire pookey. You will probably be able to tell that we are both from Texas. He is up in the drivers stand this time. We still have a lot of trouble with the shadows. On a cloudy day the video would be much better.
On the second short clip both cars enter the straight, the Touring car only feet behind the Pan car. On the second lap you can see the gap that has developed as both cars enter the straight. As far as I know both cars are in good condition at this point as they are the first three laps of the run. This performace was repeated on the third pack. Robert would have won a 5 minute race today as he made fewer mistakes, but the pan car was really the faster car.
There were two 1/8 scale cars running today. One was turning 20.2 second laps, one, a sponsored driver, was turning 19.2 second laps. We did not run together. This is off the record pace, but traction was not as good as during a big race. My pan car was doing 19.5 second laps in the clip.
Video Wide Pan vs Touring Car (2.5 MB)
In the previous video with the Narrow Pantoura vs the Nitro car, we are running 21 second laps, but I am following. Leading I would be slightly faster. Again if you have trouble viewing the video I can e-mail the clip. Send a request to [email protected].
Unlike with the narrow car, I am not hooked up with the wide pan car on the sweeper very well. My line is way wide. The rear wing is flexing down and making the lower part of my side dams drag the ground after 1.5 packs. Probably needs more support or less wing.
Let me set up this video a bit. We treated the track with sugar water, but only the race line. This made passing a bit difficult as we would have to get off the race line to pass. There is one young driver in the video and that would not be me. Robert drives a hotbodies cyclone. The cyclone mod motor had a fresh cut and new brushes on a 10 x 2 motor. His car will outrun the nitro car in the previous video. On an untreated track he will make a pass in about 2 laps from 30 feet behind. The major gains would be in the infield.
Lin, the videographer, runs touring cars, electric and Nitro, and was practicing today with an 1/8 scale. The first little clip consists basically of his priceless comments as my pan car went down the straight the first time to clean off the tire pookey. You will probably be able to tell that we are both from Texas. He is up in the drivers stand this time. We still have a lot of trouble with the shadows. On a cloudy day the video would be much better.
On the second short clip both cars enter the straight, the Touring car only feet behind the Pan car. On the second lap you can see the gap that has developed as both cars enter the straight. As far as I know both cars are in good condition at this point as they are the first three laps of the run. This performace was repeated on the third pack. Robert would have won a 5 minute race today as he made fewer mistakes, but the pan car was really the faster car.
There were two 1/8 scale cars running today. One was turning 20.2 second laps, one, a sponsored driver, was turning 19.2 second laps. We did not run together. This is off the record pace, but traction was not as good as during a big race. My pan car was doing 19.5 second laps in the clip.
Video Wide Pan vs Touring Car (2.5 MB)
In the previous video with the Narrow Pantoura vs the Nitro car, we are running 21 second laps, but I am following. Leading I would be slightly faster. Again if you have trouble viewing the video I can e-mail the clip. Send a request to [email protected].
Unlike with the narrow car, I am not hooked up with the wide pan car on the sweeper very well. My line is way wide. The rear wing is flexing down and making the lower part of my side dams drag the ground after 1.5 packs. Probably needs more support or less wing.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-08-2006 at 05:36 PM.
10-08-2006, 11:39 AM
#240
I am babying the throttle coming on to each straight and then when I feel I have more traction I give more throttle. When I get good downforce from the wing, then I can add huge throttle and the car really takes off. The touring car with fourwheel drive is naturally faster in the first 10-15 feet from the great forward traction that it has.
My rear body and wing was flexing down a full .75 inches at the end of the straight and early in the sweeper. This includes .25 inch of suspension travel. Mostly from the speed but partly due to a cracked wheel arch on one side that happened on the second pack. I installed .062 inch thick LEXAN stiffeners inside the wheel well underneath the body with thin double sided tape which happens to be white. This stiffened up the area around the body post considerably and also holds the rear wing up. I made a modest 1/8 inch trim to the rear wing as well. I should get more downforce on the sweeper now. This LEXAN was used in the Original Apogee Magnum batteries as protective strips top and bottom. I removed them to make the battery fit my cars.
My rear body and wing was flexing down a full .75 inches at the end of the straight and early in the sweeper. This includes .25 inch of suspension travel. Mostly from the speed but partly due to a cracked wheel arch on one side that happened on the second pack. I installed .062 inch thick LEXAN stiffeners inside the wheel well underneath the body with thin double sided tape which happens to be white. This stiffened up the area around the body post considerably and also holds the rear wing up. I made a modest 1/8 inch trim to the rear wing as well. I should get more downforce on the sweeper now. This LEXAN was used in the Original Apogee Magnum batteries as protective strips top and bottom. I removed them to make the battery fit my cars.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 10-08-2006 at 05:34 PM.