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Old 10-12-2009, 10:35 AM   #10756
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I got my Fantom 2S 40C 5000 last week and took the time to give ample wire clearance and file the sharp edges down so I didn't cut the leads on the battery or the balance tap. Its a shame all this battery talk is saying I made a bad choice for my 17.5/RS combo. I'll test it physically this week back to back with my old 25C Team checkpoint battery.

I did switch back to the plastic tray on both cars and put the layshaft in my son's car this weekend for weight and ease of gear selection. Except for a few scratches and a different body (R9-R on his, DNA1 on mine) the cars will be nearly identical so we can run 17.5 together. I haven't wrecked what the car came with, so that's what I'm running for bodies. He had eyes a big as pie plates when he saw the car. I think he would have driven it around the basement until the pack died if I let him. I just hope he doesn't kick me all over the track with it!
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Old 10-12-2009, 11:04 AM   #10757
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Thats the basic jist of it. A 17.5t in particuular draws nowhere near the limit of any roar approved lipo out there. As stated anyone who has tried a warmed lipo knows how much difference a warm pack makes (huge). If you can maintain or even increase a packs temp during a run it serves to maintain a high voltage and as we all know with spec racing/nimh voltage matters. I know someone who has tested this on the track and stated that the lower C rating pack felt a little softer but the lap times said there was no difference. However the difference at the end of the run (laptimes) said the lower C rating pack is faster. From what I have heard and my own exp you want as much capacity as possible along with a low C rating. A good pack for this is the fantom 5400 25C. Capacity and lower C rating and you know its a quality product cause all fantom packs come from thunder power.

yes that s how I dunderstood of increasing internal temp = more voltage on Lipo, I too like the sounds of it and try to prove in test with my good old Hi-IQ Sr
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I like the sound of this. I'd like to see it backed up with actual numbers. Get to work da_John_wee!
yes sir! I pulled out my dust collecting Hi-IQ other day for it only to find out I used up all that quality victor engineering silicone wires for ESC or chargers etc. Box just had a Hi-IQ by itself without any wires.

I ordered wires and plugs last weekend, as soon as I get those on my table I will do em and post it here and my blog.
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Old 10-12-2009, 04:19 PM   #10758
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I like the sound of this. I'd like to see it backed up with actual numbers. Get to work da_John_wee!
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Thats the basic jist of it. A 17.5t in particuular draws nowhere near the limit of any roar approved lipo out there. As stated anyone who has tried a warmed lipo knows how much difference a warm pack makes (huge). If you can maintain or even increase a packs temp during a run it serves to maintain a high voltage and as we all know with spec racing/nimh voltage matters. I know someone who has tested this on the track and stated that the lower C rating pack felt a little softer but the lap times said there was no difference. However the difference at the end of the run (laptimes) said the lower C rating pack is faster. From what I have heard and my own exp you want as much capacity as possible along with a low C rating. A good pack for this is the fantom 5400 25C. Capacity and lower C rating and you know its a quality product cause all fantom packs come from thunder power.
Guys i've had access to quite a few different manufacturers when it comes to lipos and i've been doing a crap ton of work on this front as far as the c ratings go. So far this is what i have:

1) C ratings used to point to a better cell not for amp draw but for the quality of the cell. It used to be that the higher c rating meant it was a better cell because of the manufacturing process used to build the cell itself. I've found that the most recent generation of cells from just about everyone have gone up considerably in quality and c ratings really don't mean much anymore.

2) The internal resistance of the cell is what goes down when you heat up the pack, that is why you are faster with a hot lipo, w/ my trusty handy dandy heat gun and my modified victor (yes john i use victors too i had 3 of them, sold one now have two heavily modified upgraded victor iq3000's). I heated up the cell used a gfx to charge them, then the victors to discharge at 40a and low and behold the internal resistance went down by a HUGE amount. unfortunatley i didn't use my compter connected victor so i don't have the graphs but i'll try to do this all again w/ my hyperion so you can see it all in a graph.

3) MAH in stock/spec racing TODAY is more important than c ratings. Again the quality of cells as an industry have gone up SOOOOOO much that staying in the top flat part of the discharge curve with low internal resistance is really what we are after in spec racing. You will never draw nearly enough amperage with a 10.5/13.5/17.5/21.5 to even get in the same continent as a 25c 5400mah battery. Think about it, your solder joints melt at around 90 to 100a 5400mah 25c is around 120amps. One of my tests i've connected about 6" of wire soldered at about 3" with a dean connector with high silver content solder. I charged the packs and shorted the ends of the wire in less than 30 seconds the connector got so hot it desoldered itself. I used a 35c 5000mah pack from china.

4) In spec racing speedo's are fast making motor and battery choice irrelevant. Just my opinion but at our club races tekins are walking just about everyone else on the back straight except the sxx.

My experience and 2cents. Also the main reason i've decieded to NOT import my own brand of batteries. Thunderpower/Fantom have the battery thing down, at least for now, no one has the internal resistance they do at least no one i've tested so far which is essentially all the usual suspects (smc, ip, checkpoint, maxamps, etc).

Now after reading this i'm sure you are thinking why the hell are people selling so many 40 and now 50c packs!? Well, all these fast guys still use 40c 5k mah packs and they are freakin fast! is it the pack or the driver i dunno but i tell you what the data i have is not scientific enough for me to tell my customers not to run what the fast guys are running. When (and i say when not if) i develop a method to prove out my hypothesis then i will recoomend to my customers they go w/ one pack or the other. But for now ... they fast guys all use 40c 5k mah packs, once our friends in OZ get their hands on some of these sport packs from Fantom, and we can get a couple drievrs here to really put them through the paces and collect more data.

Man what a long ass post about nothing to do w/ a type-r ahhaha.
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Old 10-12-2009, 05:47 PM   #10759
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1) C ratings used to point to a better cell not for amp draw but for the quality of the cell.

2) The internal resistance of the cell is what goes down when you heat up the pack, that is why you are faster with a hot lipo, w/ my trusty handy dandy heat gun and my modified victor (yes john i use victors too i had 3 of them, sold one now have two heavily modified upgraded victor iq3000's).

3) MAH in stock/spec racing TODAY is more important than c ratings. Think about it, your solder joints melt at around 90 to 100a 5400mah 25c is around 120amps. One of my tests i've connected about 6" of wire soldered at about 3" with a dean connector with high silver content solder. I charged the packs and shorted the ends of the wire in less than 30 seconds the connector got so hot it desoldered itself. I used a 35c 5000mah pack from china.

4) In spec racing speedo's are fast making motor and battery choice irrelevant. Just my opinion but at our club races tekins are walking just about everyone else on the back straight except the sxx.

Now after reading this i'm sure you are thinking why the hell are people selling so many 40 and now 50c packs!? Well, all these fast guys still use 40c 5k mah packs and they are freakin fast! is it the pack or the driver i dunno
Hey Tory few quick point from my point of view

1) C rating is just another "measurement unit" you may imagine or connect words like "better quality" with it but that would be like a taller pack (in inches) battery is better pack, highter c rating is some what "non trusty worth it " game terms in this days.


2) more volt = lower IR for sure but higher temp = lower IR? thats hard to understand and how high is the limit of raising temp Vs lowering IR? if I have enough time and funds I like to find that out. I never thought you could have a Hi-IQ! wow (charger that is)

3) that was case in stock racing from the day one not only cause you can gear taller but after few minutes in to a race higher Ma pack have higher voltage if all condition is equaled, I think lower turn motors can pull more than 100 amps, reason why ou melted a soldering joint is cause compounding time/raising temp, 7.4v 100 amps draw in moment won't melt solder joint in between 14AWG and a Deans connetor.

I think any lipo pack can go way behind there labled C rating if you shorted out like you said you did for testing, I wonder what you tried to prove by doing that called a test, but l like to to hear that.

4) why do we (or some of us ) need a 40 c or beyond? cause like I said above some BL motor can pull all that C rating and beyond(amps draw) I read on forign forum lipo came out like "jelly" after a 5min race with a 3.5 motors in 110deg weather, I bet ya C rating dropped instead of rised in condition like that and you need all the C rating (peak amp draw/lower IR whichever you preffered) as you can get, but for most of us in USA actaullly need a lower c rating pack for more punch! how Ironic! ROAR/USA was earliy adaptor of Lipo and start this whiole C game then we going to become a largest importer of lowest c rating packs (lower in quality in tory's term) China can produced! the Auto Racing is full of conundrum and I'm loving it!

Man what a long ass reply about nothing to do w/ a type-r ahhaha.
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Old 10-12-2009, 07:55 PM   #10760
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Hey Tory few quick point from my point of view

1) C rating is just another "measurement unit" you may imagine or connect words like "better quality" with it but that would be like a taller pack (in inches) battery is better pack, highter c rating is some what "non trusty worth it " game terms in this days.


2) more volt = lower IR for sure but higher temp = lower IR? thats hard to understand and how high is the limit of raising temp Vs lowering IR? if I have enough time and funds I like to find that out. I never thought you could have a Hi-IQ! wow (charger that is)

3) that was case in stock racing from the day one not only cause you can gear taller but after few minutes in to a race higher Ma pack have higher voltage if all condition is equaled, I think lower turn motors can pull more than 100 amps, reason why ou melted a soldering joint is cause compounding time/raising temp, 7.4v 100 amps draw in moment won't melt solder joint in between 14AWG and a Deans connetor.

I think any lipo pack can go way behind there labled C rating if you shorted out like you said you did for testing, I wonder what you tried to prove by doing that called a test, but l like to to hear that.

4) why do we (or some of us ) need a 40 c or beyond? cause like I said above some BL motor can pull all that C rating and beyond(amps draw) I read on forign forum lipo came out like "jelly" after a 5min race with a 3.5 motors in 110deg weather, I bet ya C rating dropped instead of rised in condition like that and you need all the C rating (peak amp draw/lower IR whichever you preffered) as you can get, but for most of us in USA actaullly need a lower c rating pack for more punch! how Ironic! ROAR/USA was earliy adaptor of Lipo and start this whiole C game then we going to become a largest importer of lowest c rating packs (lower in quality in tory's term) China can produced! the Auto Racing is full of conundrum and I'm loving it!

Man what a long ass reply about nothing to do w/ a type-r ahhaha.
1) There is no standard for "c" every manufacturer is different, it's not like volts or gallons or a meter. I've found batteries that are clearly marked 15c and puf after being discharged at more like 10c.

2) warming nimh was a common way of getting lower IR and higher voltage, no diff in lipos. But again, this is all unscientific, i need to get controlled experiments with computer tracking of data.

3) a 10c 1000mah pack won't melt connectors when shorted, tried that too. .
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:43 PM   #10761
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1) There is no standard for "c" every manufacturer is different, it's not like volts or gallons or a meter. I've found batteries that are clearly marked 15c and puf after being discharged at more like 10c.

2) warming nimh was a common way of getting lower IR and higher voltage, no diff in lipos. But again, this is all unscientific, i need to get controlled experiments with computer tracking of data.

3) a 10c 1000mah pack won't melt connectors when shorted, tried that too. .
1: C is very standard method of it, just hook up a digital logger such as http://www.manatronics.com/index.html (discharger) on a cell and measured how much amps can be draw constantly than devide Mah by that number you get the C, when you say every manf is diffrent it's like every manufactures using diffrent ruler to measure in inches, it is same as volts or gallons or a meter.

I bet ya all that "Manufacture" does that test and pass C rating information to the RC companies, but some print that "as is" and some wont. or you can even order it from some manufactures in china with faulty number on the lable. (I know it is true but can't tell you who told me that)

2: warming NIMH for a lower IR? which cells was that? I been in and out of this hobby and may miss those cells but in my memory Nicd and Nimh hate heats.

3) Why?
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:06 AM   #10762
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I don't think anyone is going to agree to most things being said here without trying it themselves. I suggest you do... and decide for yourself..

Note... For as long as I can remember I have always made sure my nimh's were warm as they just went better. I also have tested this on a GFX and got the same results. And we all know a freshly charged pack goes better.. Once again because it is warm. Is it that far fetched to believe that a lipo is any different? Ok no responses please....

Note2... You may be interested to know that IB nimh cells are rated at 10C. Of course they were good enough for mod although I question a lipo of the same C rating for the same use. That said they still had plenty of punch and many people out there will tell you that back to back nimh has more punch in spec than a lipo.

Anyway thoughts to ponder... In the end you have to figure out what works for you and most people already know that someone elses setup dosen't always work for them so why would you consider the same dosen't apply to their gear.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:23 AM   #10763
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I don't think anyone is going to agree to most things being said here without trying it themselves. I suggest you do... and decide for yourself..

Note... For as long as I can remember I have always made sure my nimh's were warm as they just went better. I also have tested this on a GFX and got the same results. And we all know a freshly charged pack goes better.. Once again because it is warm. Is it that far fetched to believe that a lipo is any different? Ok no responses please....

Note2... You may be interested to know that IB nimh cells are rated at 10C. Of course they were good enough for mod although I question a lipo of the same C rating for the same use. That said they still had plenty of punch and many people out there will tell you that back to back nimh has more punch in spec than a lipo.

Anyway thoughts to ponder... In the end you have to figure out what works for you and most people already know that someone elses setup dosen't always work for them so why would you consider the same dosen't apply to their gear.
The heat issue varys based on your charge rate, if you charged Nimh at 4 amps it will be a lot cooler than at 8, and I'm sure we can all agree the pack charged at 8 would be faster out of the gate.
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Old 10-13-2009, 07:51 AM   #10764
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The heat issue varys based on your charge rate, if you charged Nimh at 4 amps it will be a lot cooler than at 8, and I'm sure we can all agree the pack charged at 8 would be faster out of the gate.
Yes thats true but the point wasn't how hot, just that heat improves performance. As i have driven mod for some time now I charge lower rates than most, 4amps for both nimh and lipo. With Nimh though I used to discharge the pack just before charging for best performance. With lipo that became irrelevent. As runtime is no longer an issue increasing power is such a simple thing to do. Infact its anoying how easy it is to do. I rememeber the brushed days when my spring and brush mods on a V2 gave me stupid power and runtime over everyone... Now I get blown away by some noob who can't drive but still bolts in a 3.5t!
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:47 AM   #10765
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Yes thats true but the point wasn't how hot, just that heat improves performance. As i have driven mod for some time now I charge lower rates than most, 4amps for both nimh and lipo. With Nimh though I used to discharge the pack just before charging for best performance. With lipo that became irrelevent. As runtime is no longer an issue increasing power is such a simple thing to do. Infact its anoying how easy it is to do. I rememeber the brushed days when my spring and brush mods on a V2 gave me stupid power and runtime over everyone... Now I get blown away by some noob who can't drive but still bolts in a 3.5t!
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The heat issue varys based on your charge rate, if you charged Nimh at 4 amps it will be a lot cooler than at 8, and I'm sure we can all agree the pack charged at 8 would be faster out of the gate.

I dont think you got more punch out of round cells cause of heats, you got more punch cause we charged at higher rate, if you can charge those at same high rate without raising temp I bet ya they will deliver same power.

I wasnt talking about having slightly warmed pack I was just against this theorty of raising temp=lowering IR in round cells. or any cells IMO.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:52 AM   #10766
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I dont think you got more punch out of round cells cause of heats, you got more punch cause we charged at higher rate, if you can charge those at same high rate without raising temp I bet ya they will deliver same power.

I wasnt talking about having slightly warmed pack I was just against this theorty of raising temp=lowering IR in round cells. or any cells IMO.
Put your batteries in your freezer, then charge them at the same time you charged a room temp pack and see which is better.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:10 AM   #10767
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Put your batteries in your freezer, then charge them at the same time you charged a room temp pack and see which is better.
we used to freezed Sanyo SCR1200 haha never worked.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:15 PM   #10768
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we used to freezed Sanyo SCR1200 haha never worked.
I remember that, i used to charge my 1700sce's in a cooler at the track!!

But seriously, i am still amazed at how much of number junkies rc guys are (me included). Most of these numbers have very little bearing on how the track performance is going to be because of the sheer number of variables involved.

My lust for numbers is undying .... which is why as soon as i can afford it i'm going to get a Novak Sentry (Pablo Diablo's fault ahhaha he put me onto this product) and track real time performance numbers over time and put them up on the web.
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:39 PM   #10769
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I remember that, i used to charge my 1700sce's in a cooler at the track!!

But seriously, i am still amazed at how much of number junkies rc guys are (me included). Most of these numbers have very little bearing on how the track performance is going to be because of the sheer number of variables involved.

My lust for numbers is undying .... which is why as soon as i can afford it i'm going to get a Novak Sentry (Pablo Diablo's fault ahhaha he put me onto this product) and track real time performance numbers over time and put them up on the web.
I blame it on those WTF moments, you know when you've got your good battery, good speedo, right gearing, and someone just pulled 3' on you down the straight, and your like WTF!
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:56 PM   #10770
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When 3300s were out, a buddy of mine whose brother pylon races electric planes gave him a small heater box to try with our batteries. The reason being, they were going way faster with warmed batteries. They also drew multiples of the amps we did, so they definitely knew what was up. We tried the heater, and it was faster up to a point. If I remember, going over 140 F (or close to it) would be too hot and fade the battery. Getting close to that point did make the car run faster.

Danny from SMC used to tell guys to take 100 seconds out of a battery and then repeak it before a race, which is sort of the same idea.
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