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Old 06-13-2006, 07:47 AM   #16
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This topic has been discussed to death across the board for years. I think that if its good enough..it will catch on...period. Just like DSM has. Regardless of what the "hardcore" racer's opinions are and what the manufacturers would like...if the technology works and people want it...its only a matter of time. Be patient.
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Old 06-13-2006, 07:49 AM   #17
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I'll be the first to admit I'm the old guy that loves tuning motors and making them go fast. I recently had a chance to run brushless for the first time. I was impressed. Once I got used to it, gear correctly, and got some drag brake dialed to make it feel like I was used to with a brushmotor , it was great.
Lipo was different. I was running a touring car on carpet. I ran a super fast motor and with a brand new 4200 got 6 minutes of run time. With a Lipo battery I got 8 minutes. The problem was since I run a Corally RDX, I couldn't turn right without traction rolling and didn't have enough weight with me to cure the problem. Power felt about the same between the batteries. I think the run time would have been closer to the 4200 if I could have driven the car hard and not had to baby it around all the right hand turns. So I think if Lipo becomes the norm, some car designs will have change to allow the change in weight (Maybe Losi already has a step up on that with the battery in the center ).
Anyway, I guess I'm more open to a change after running the motor. I would really miss tuning motors, but it wouldn't that bad. Seems like it would be a good step to making cars more equal but, like mentioned above, would be taking the "motor tuners" out of the picture. There are so many small companies starting now that only sell tuned stock and 19 turn motors. Even the old days of motor companies with people who actual wind their own arms seem to be going away.

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Old 06-13-2006, 08:00 AM   #18
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I've been in the r/c airplanes and helis part of the hobby after i dropped cars a few years ago due to the high costs to be competitive.
Comm lathes, bags of brushes, Matched packs that costs arms and legs, a new motor every 1-2 races, etc, you get the idea.

Brushless has been a standard in flying for quite a long while now and it's clear on the advantages and running costs. Lipos also...


Anyway, it no longer takes an hour plus to charge lipos packs.
With new technologies in the battery chemistry and charging control patterns, I now charge my packs in less than half an hour. It's not a matter of how many packs i have to fly, rather how much time do i have to use up all my packs.

Sooner than later, this technology will spill over to cars and everyone will soon realise the advantages.
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:01 AM   #19
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No matter what problems it may seem that LiPo/Brushless will fix, they won't (sadly). RC is a business and industry just like anything else, and if companies don't make money, then the sport will die. However, in the same way, if people have to spend too much money, and aren't having fun, the sport will die. Almost a catch 22. It'd be great if LiPo/brushless or maybe some other newer technology can close this gap, however, economics and people's unlimited wants will not let this happen. Companies will devise a way to "match" and perhaps "zap" and further tune LiPo batteries. Also, LiPo batteries need to be balanced, just like equalizing NiMH cells. If there happens to be a "stock or spec" brushless motor, people will figure out how to retune or re program parts of the esc. If the motor is mechanically detuned to prevent this (like current brushes motors) then not all brushed motors will be equal, and there is again the person that can afford several motors, and find the best one.

However, LiPo and brushless I believe make things a least a bit more leveled, and the cost lower.

Plus...the wiring for brushless is messy, lol
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Old 06-13-2006, 08:27 AM   #20
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Default I race a brushless 4300 and as soon as I can get...

my Lipo pack in my T2 I'll be doing it. If Xray won't make it soon, I'll get the AE car when it's out. Whatever class they throw me into is fine with me. Brushless is big in our oval class, but sedan took a dirve when 4300 was racing with 19t brushed motors. Otherwise it was growing very fast. I'm happy, happy I'm not spending all that money on brushes, motors, motor gear and highend batteries. Now we went to spec rubber tires and costs should be even lower. I'm having more fun with brushless than I ever did with brushed and now lipos should make it even better. I can wait to start using mine. Now if others would only see the light. It will get better when the cars are designed with use of lipos. Weight, left right balance and all.
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Old 06-13-2006, 10:51 AM   #21
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How would you do Brushless/ Lipo RTR? Do that and than you would become mainstream.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:00 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnMatrix
How would you do Brushless/ Lipo RTR? Do that and than you would become mainstream.
I totally agree. While I personally hate the concept of RTR's, the fact is that they do bring people in who would otherwise be intimidated by the idea of building a kit from scratch.

Team Losi has already taken the first step with their XXX-T RTR, which now comes with a Novak SS4300. Over the next few years (anywhere from 1 to 3, I would presume), LiPo's will be offered in more configurations and manufacturers will begin designing their cars to accommodate them. Once that happens, LOOK OUT!
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:11 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
This topic has been discussed to death across the board for years. I think that if its good enough..it will catch on...period. Just like DSM has. Regardless of what the "hardcore" racer's opinions are and what the manufacturers would like...if the technology works and people want it...its only a matter of time. Be patient.

I agree with this post 100%.

also for the arguement that the manufacturers will not make money
if this technology become mainstream doesn't cut it. The market
always changes and its up to the manufacturers and retailers to adjust
to the market like any other business.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:31 AM   #24
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Brushless and lipo may be the wave of the future for the backyard basher but the manufactures of these things are slowly cutting there own wrists. There is not fun factor at home anymore. Nothing to do nothing to work on because the rtr is at the shop because the driver doesn't know how to fix it. Brushless is imposible to keep up with because you didn't buy a new rotor. The ones that do will find a way to zap them to make them stronger. PC guys will find a way to hack into and reprogram the variable frequncy drive input in the esc and disable the sensed part of the motor ( if anyone uses that anymore) to get more rpms out of them.

Now your highly tunable kit is a overpriced Radioshack car. whopppeee and guess what. for offroad and onroad there will be a new RTR kit for you to buy 6 months from now so you better list it on E-Bay to get the best price for yours before the rush.

Ther motor companies are going to discontinue motors at a quicker pace To change the classes so you have to buy something new. Think of it this way. Why cures the sickness and make a little, when you only need to treat it and make Millions.

can I run in this class with this motor? nope you have to run that motor. But they don't make that any more. Sorry about that. that's ok I be here in this class when you guys buy the new motor.

Think of all the variety choices for parts and hopups you will lose because they are left out. I don't think the battery matchers are all going to jump on the band wagon to build Lipo packs especially with as small of margin they make already.

Change without though is not good
Change for the sake of change is not good.

People tell me you should run brushless with us. it's cheaper it will one cost you 240.00 to run and if you want to run with lipos it will on cost 260.00 dollars more for the two packs and 300.00 for the new charger.
I may not be good at the new math but for that $800.00 I can buy a crap load of cells and brushes.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:44 AM   #25
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yea i bought a lipo battery omgosh.. it replaced all of my other batteries
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:50 AM   #26
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Show me on the doll where the brushless motor touched you.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:55 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
Brushless and lipo may be the wave of the future for the backyard basher but the manufactures of these things are slowly cutting there own wrists.
They don't have a choice. If consumers want it, manufacturers need to make it. The ones that don't get left behind *cough* TRINITY *cough*. All it takes is for one manufacturer to say "screw it... there's a buck to be made here and no one is taking it..." Bam. You now have the first component answering the second component of the Supply/Demand equation. If other manufacturers are going to compete for that buck, they had better meet demand, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
Nothing to do nothing to work on because the rtr is at the shop because the driver doesn't know how to fix it.
That's the result of the RTR wave, not the brushless wave. This is a problem with or without brushless motors and ESCs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
Brushless is imposible to keep up with because you didn't buy a new rotor. The ones that do will find a way to zap them to make them stronger. PC guys will find a way to hack into and reprogram the variable frequncy drive input in the esc and disable the sensed part of the motor ( if anyone uses that anymore) to get more rpms out of them.
This may be true with Stock/Spec racing, but so what. We're trading one bad element for another. We already have cheaters doing things to motors that are illegal and impossible for the average racer to do. The money-race is already in full swing, and again, it's not specific to brushless. In fact, brushless will help neutralize it.

As for Modified racing, exactly how much power can these vehicles put down? There's much more power available today than can actually be used effectively.

I simply disagree that the problem will even exist in Modified racing. It *might* exist in Stock racing, but it will certainly be more difficult and those issues can be addressed when they get here.

But let's not kid ourselves: we're not exactly tackling cheating just by sticking to that trusty 27T EPIC motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
for offroad and onroad there will be a new RTR kit for you to buy 6 months from now so you better list it on E-Bay to get the best price for yours before the rush.
Again, that race is already in progress with the current generation of motors and batteries. You're speaking as if brushless and LiPo introduces problems that don't already exist, when in fact they minimize the effects of these problems.

The battery race is INSANE. I think LiPo would all but eliminate that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
can I run in this class with this motor? nope you have to run that motor. But they don't make that any more. Sorry about that. that's ok I be here in this class when you guys buy the new motor.
Once again, this is a problem that already exists. RTR's come with anything but a stock motor... they come with 15 winds of turd that couldn't race the hair on my back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
Think of all the variety choices for parts and hopups you will lose because they are left out.
EXACTLY! Racing might actually revert to racing cars rather than racing wallets. If we want this hobby to be accessible (and palatable) to newcomers, this had better be a primary goal of ours.

Of course, we're only talking about batteries, brushes, armatures, lathes, and zappers. These are very expensive consumables that turn club racing into a VERY expensive proposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
Change without thought is not good
Change for the sake of change is not good.
... and? You may disagree with what's happening, but that doesn't mean that thought hasn't gone into it. The change you're seeing isn't just for the sake of change; it's a response to market demand. It's not optional. It's required if a company is to stay in business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hock
People tell me you should run brushless with us. it's cheaper it will one cost you 240.00 to run and if you want to run with lipos it will on cost 260.00 dollars more for the two packs and 300.00 for the new charger.
I may not be good at the new math but for that $800.00 I can buy a crap load of cells and brushes.
I've run both quite extensively, and I can tell you that brushless is MUCH cheaper to run. The financial incentive is even more pronounced the longer it's used. Heck, the initial investments between the two are virtually identical (and that's using a conservative figure for a dive into brushed motors and equipment), and that does't even account for the fact that you're going through brushes, comms, etc.

As for LiPo, the batteries are more expensive on a per-pack basis, but when you only need 2 packs anyway (and they retain voltage for a much longer period of time), you're already ahead.

We can do the exact math of LiPo vs. NiMH and Brushed vs. Brushless, and you'll find that there's no discussion to be had from a financial standpoint. Factor in the user-friendliness of the new technology, and you have a catalyst for growth in the hobby, which is exactly what we need right now.


PS: A LiPo charger is not $300. My $100 ICE does it just fine , and there are even cheaper alternatives out there.
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Last edited by Jason B; 06-13-2006 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 06-13-2006, 11:55 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Show me on the doll where the brushless motor touched you.
Okay that actually made me LMAO!
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:00 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Jason B
Okay that actually made me LMAO!
I couldn't think of a nice way to say the things you just did. That was my best effort.
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Old 06-13-2006, 12:09 PM   #30
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I was driving into work thinking about this some more. (that makes this hobby is officially not a hobby anymore, I think the word is diseases)

I think the best thing we can do right now is:

You have three brushlesses cars you have a class.
You have three lipo's cars you have a class.

I think the problem comes with half of us like it the way it is and half dont.

Nothing says we have to switch to brushless/lipo and nothing says you have to stay in the current system.

I think there has to be a respect factor in here: for those who like it the way it is, they are not blind to the future, stubborn racers. For those who like brushless, they are not the answers to all the RC dreams, but another form of racing.
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