Wings and Spoilers
05-12-2006, 05:23 PM
#46
Tech Champion
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Originally Posted by KarpetRacer93
I think what im going to do is, cut down the 200mm wing to roar legal specs. Then I will add lexan to the top to make almost a NASCAR style wing on top of it. Hopefuly I then can adjust downforce by bending it to different angles. Maybe I will also make a piece and angle it to push air up to the wing. This will prevent air from going between the wing and the trunk of the body.
05-12-2006, 10:43 PM
#47
Thats what I tested.
05-13-2006, 07:22 AM
#48
Originally Posted by Kevin K
I think what you are talking about is adding a Gurney(sp) flap to the wing....which is again against ROAR rules. Look at the back of a 1/8th scale On-Road Nitro body they have gurney flaps that you can adjust. Also if you block the air from getting under the wing you no longer have a wing you now have a spoiler. Its a called a wing when air can flow over both sides of it when air only flows over one side its a spoiler. I like the ideas of what you are trying to do but dont think that any of the things you are doing are going to be ROAR legal....they will be some fun things to play around with and see what you can notice. Good luck with your test....
05-13-2006, 08:45 AM
#49
Originally Posted by Jeff Brown
Well, I have not tested the Nemesis. Jeff
If you ever get a chance you should try one.
05-14-2006, 01:01 PM
#50
Originally Posted by xxxkat
The Nemesis is a great design and one of my all time favorites..to bad it's not Roar legal,For stock carpet it's one of the best..works good in 19 to.. If you ever get a chance you should try one.
If you ever get a chance you should try one.
05-14-2006, 02:49 PM
#51
Tech Addict
Nemesis Sedan Body
nf_ekt:
There are two reasons that the Nemesis is not ROAR legal. #1 - we (Protoform) have never sent it in seeking approval. #2 - at the time that the Nemesis was first introduced, the ROAR rules stated that in order to be eligable for approval the submitted bodies must resemble or represent a real race car. We, as manufacturers were instructed to send in photos of the real car (with our application) in order for ROAR to verify that the body in question had enough of a resemblance and enough detail etc.
Well, a few things have developed in recent years. ROAR's body approval committee basically started approving just about any body submitted that had the right dimensions. (re: height & width etc) This is OK with me if that's the way they want to do it - and as long as they are consistent and it's all put in writing.
However the bigger issue that has reared its ugly head in recent years is licensing. High profile rc companies like Tamiya, Kyosho, HPI and (even Protoform) have been forced to enter into legal licensing agreements to be able to use names such as Alfa Romeo, Dodge, Mazda etc. Large "kit" manfactureres may have an easy time affording this, but smaller body & accessories type companies are getting seriously squeezed. These legal contracts were at one time fair and equitable to both parties impo, however in the last couple of years big-time greed has become a part of the equation. Large and very powerfull independent "licensing firms" (who know nothing about our industry) have been secured by the automakers to "get all the $ you can" and "make sure you get their pocket change too." More recently, large "auditing firms" have jumped into the feeding frenzie to get they share of the bootie. Everyone's looking for free money because they've become fat and spoiled by the billions of dollars changing hands in the incredibly lucrative "NASCAR die cast & collectable" industry - for the last 15 years.
To add insult to injury, while we are spending serious amounts of time and cash on licensing administration and payments, there are a bunch of RC body companies like Blitz Titan, RD Logics, Powers Racing and others in the far east that rip-off, and steal (back-pour) our designs - and don't pay a dime to anyone. No conscience - no scruples.
To make a short story long (sorry) - what I'm trying to say is that: it's no longer feasible to do bodies that have "name representation" on them in 2006 and beyond.
ROAR has made a very positive move in allowing us to submit bodies to them for official approval that do not represent "real" cars - so long as they fit the rules from a technical standpoint. I'm seriously hoping that EFRA and IFMAR (as well as the BRCA) will see the wisdom in this. I will in fact be sending the Protoform Nemesis to ROAR in hopes it will be approved for racing. Protoform will be launching a new line of "DNA" labelled race-sedan bodies in the near future. They will be no more or no less radical than what the rc racing world is accustomed to - and will hopefully look very cool and work well. I care about this sport - a lot - and I don't want to do anything outlandish and stupid that might tarnish it's image.
For me personally - it's either that, or I'll be getting a job as a Walmart greeter.
Hope that answers your question. What are your thoughts as racers and enthusiasts?
Dale - Protoform
There are two reasons that the Nemesis is not ROAR legal. #1 - we (Protoform) have never sent it in seeking approval. #2 - at the time that the Nemesis was first introduced, the ROAR rules stated that in order to be eligable for approval the submitted bodies must resemble or represent a real race car. We, as manufacturers were instructed to send in photos of the real car (with our application) in order for ROAR to verify that the body in question had enough of a resemblance and enough detail etc.
Well, a few things have developed in recent years. ROAR's body approval committee basically started approving just about any body submitted that had the right dimensions. (re: height & width etc) This is OK with me if that's the way they want to do it - and as long as they are consistent and it's all put in writing.
However the bigger issue that has reared its ugly head in recent years is licensing. High profile rc companies like Tamiya, Kyosho, HPI and (even Protoform) have been forced to enter into legal licensing agreements to be able to use names such as Alfa Romeo, Dodge, Mazda etc. Large "kit" manfactureres may have an easy time affording this, but smaller body & accessories type companies are getting seriously squeezed. These legal contracts were at one time fair and equitable to both parties impo, however in the last couple of years big-time greed has become a part of the equation. Large and very powerfull independent "licensing firms" (who know nothing about our industry) have been secured by the automakers to "get all the $ you can" and "make sure you get their pocket change too." More recently, large "auditing firms" have jumped into the feeding frenzie to get they share of the bootie. Everyone's looking for free money because they've become fat and spoiled by the billions of dollars changing hands in the incredibly lucrative "NASCAR die cast & collectable" industry - for the last 15 years.
To add insult to injury, while we are spending serious amounts of time and cash on licensing administration and payments, there are a bunch of RC body companies like Blitz Titan, RD Logics, Powers Racing and others in the far east that rip-off, and steal (back-pour) our designs - and don't pay a dime to anyone. No conscience - no scruples.
To make a short story long (sorry) - what I'm trying to say is that: it's no longer feasible to do bodies that have "name representation" on them in 2006 and beyond.
ROAR has made a very positive move in allowing us to submit bodies to them for official approval that do not represent "real" cars - so long as they fit the rules from a technical standpoint. I'm seriously hoping that EFRA and IFMAR (as well as the BRCA) will see the wisdom in this. I will in fact be sending the Protoform Nemesis to ROAR in hopes it will be approved for racing. Protoform will be launching a new line of "DNA" labelled race-sedan bodies in the near future. They will be no more or no less radical than what the rc racing world is accustomed to - and will hopefully look very cool and work well. I care about this sport - a lot - and I don't want to do anything outlandish and stupid that might tarnish it's image.
For me personally - it's either that, or I'll be getting a job as a Walmart greeter.
Hope that answers your question. What are your thoughts as racers and enthusiasts?
Dale - Protoform
Last edited by daleepp; 05-14-2006 at 05:49 PM.
05-14-2006, 05:18 PM
#52
Thanks for the explanation Dale.I am glad to hear that ProtoForm is going to submit the Nemesis body for approval.On the licensing fee's..I think their are a few cars out their(Dodge Stratus)that i would have not even known about.. 
they should be paying you for advertising..
they should be paying you for advertising..
05-14-2006, 05:55 PM
#53
Dale,Ihave been running Protoform bodies for about the last 3 yrs now,I'm just a local club racer not a pro. Haven't tried the Nemesis,i like the dodge, but i will try whatever body you build.Don't blame you for droping the rest.
05-14-2006, 07:19 PM
#54
This is something that some people in the rc community have been aware of. This is as we know, the primary reason why we don't see a greater variety of shells on the market! I know, i'd love to have a whole shelfload of european exotics, but i'd imagine it would cost the producer a pretty penny.
What i can't understand is why they would chose to put the pinch on smaller retailers. In my eyes, yes there is a good commercial opportunity in regards to smaller replicas, but the marketing value that they would generate would also amount to a good deal too.
I can see where they come from, this kind of marketing is very much indirect and not at all focused in regards to their tradtitional demographic. But, really. With competition in their focus areas so big anyway, RC seemes like a dead giveaway! You get to market to a large number of kids, families, singles with large disposable income, petrol heads in general!
It's such a shame..
What i can't understand is why they would chose to put the pinch on smaller retailers. In my eyes, yes there is a good commercial opportunity in regards to smaller replicas, but the marketing value that they would generate would also amount to a good deal too.
I can see where they come from, this kind of marketing is very much indirect and not at all focused in regards to their tradtitional demographic. But, really. With competition in their focus areas so big anyway, RC seemes like a dead giveaway! You get to market to a large number of kids, families, singles with large disposable income, petrol heads in general!
It's such a shame..
05-14-2006, 09:00 PM
#55
Originally Posted by daleepp
Soviet;
I must say, you crack me up. lol Your posts are always so ....entertaining. Just wondering, do you follow Formula 1 at all? You know, the open wheel teams that have 600 employees, 400million dollar a year budgets, and wind tunnels that rival and even surpass the level of aero-technology in any space program, in any country in the world. (and yes, your once-great nation included - lol)
Well, if you've ever noticed, the top 5 or 6 teams very rarely show up two weeks in a row, or even a second year in a row (at the same track) with the same aero package - even when the rules remain constant. The changes they make to their wings, spill plates, barge boards, and diffusers etc are so minute, that only a trained eye can readily notice the changes. Weekly, there's an addition or removal of a little gurney flap, a tiny fin, a little inward curve here and outward curl there - all dictated by the wind tunnel "numbers" as they are decoded by some very inteligent aerodynamicists. Do they come up with these little novelty pieces by chance? No, they have a team of modelmakers making 3D parts that are tested in the windtunnels that tend to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - with one day off a year - usually Christmas day.
Soviet, you must think these guys are absolutely nuts - making all these silly expensive little changes when it would be a lot easier and cheaper to give the drivers a small "sugar pill" and convince him that "Honestly: tests have proven that this pill will help you shave a tenth off you best lap time - and give you more stamina and concentration". Wouldn't you agree? Or hey - maybe thay are doing all this needless work and making all these little detail changes to the racecar just to make the driver "think" that they are actually improvements - which will in turn have a psychological effect on the driver and make him drive quicker.
Seems to me that one would have to conclude that all us "aero nuts" are in fact actually nuts or there is still a lot to learn and a lot to gain (performance wise) in the area of aerodynamics. Especially in electric rc cars where our finite power source dictates a body with a relatively efficient shape, and our crazy power-to-weight ratio dictates a prescribed degree of downforce.
But then - you decide. You are the expert.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...6/755/271.html
Dale
I must say, you crack me up. lol Your posts are always so ....entertaining. Just wondering, do you follow Formula 1 at all? You know, the open wheel teams that have 600 employees, 400million dollar a year budgets, and wind tunnels that rival and even surpass the level of aero-technology in any space program, in any country in the world. (and yes, your once-great nation included - lol)
Well, if you've ever noticed, the top 5 or 6 teams very rarely show up two weeks in a row, or even a second year in a row (at the same track) with the same aero package - even when the rules remain constant. The changes they make to their wings, spill plates, barge boards, and diffusers etc are so minute, that only a trained eye can readily notice the changes. Weekly, there's an addition or removal of a little gurney flap, a tiny fin, a little inward curve here and outward curl there - all dictated by the wind tunnel "numbers" as they are decoded by some very inteligent aerodynamicists. Do they come up with these little novelty pieces by chance? No, they have a team of modelmakers making 3D parts that are tested in the windtunnels that tend to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a week - with one day off a year - usually Christmas day.
Soviet, you must think these guys are absolutely nuts - making all these silly expensive little changes when it would be a lot easier and cheaper to give the drivers a small "sugar pill" and convince him that "Honestly: tests have proven that this pill will help you shave a tenth off you best lap time - and give you more stamina and concentration". Wouldn't you agree? Or hey - maybe thay are doing all this needless work and making all these little detail changes to the racecar just to make the driver "think" that they are actually improvements - which will in turn have a psychological effect on the driver and make him drive quicker.
Seems to me that one would have to conclude that all us "aero nuts" are in fact actually nuts or there is still a lot to learn and a lot to gain (performance wise) in the area of aerodynamics. Especially in electric rc cars where our finite power source dictates a body with a relatively efficient shape, and our crazy power-to-weight ratio dictates a prescribed degree of downforce.
But then - you decide. You are the expert.
http://www.formula1.com/insight/tech...6/755/271.html
Dale
Dale...All I'm saying is that folks in RC consistantly and wrongly attribute various characteristics of a cars handling to it's body / wing.
The kid didn't crash just because he tossed on a 200mm wing; we all know that. Plus yes, I am aware of F-1 and the insane amount of money spent on R&D.
Protoform makes a good living by convincing Johnny racer that he needs the new Status MKIII version 2 Si to go "fast" (whatever that is). I wouldn't expect you to agree with my ideology that once you have a generic bodyshape that works, you'd be better served by learning how to tune your chassis for maximum performance rather than by "swapping lexan" every month or so.
05-14-2006, 09:03 PM
#56
Originally Posted by C_O_jones
I think Iv'e figured it out:
Soveit is a Placibo, looks the same, but just doesn't do anything.
Try running the Mazda 6 in club trim, with full height wing, and then trim it to ROAR regs,115mm max height with min roof height of 115mm, big diff. To get to ROAR regs there is not much wing left.
Fred
Soveit is a Placibo, looks the same, but just doesn't do anything.
Try running the Mazda 6 in club trim, with full height wing, and then trim it to ROAR regs,115mm max height with min roof height of 115mm, big diff. To get to ROAR regs there is not much wing left.
Fred
At least spell my nick correctly...sheesh.
05-14-2006, 10:19 PM
#57
I hope the nemesis becomes roar legal.
I could care less if a shell mimics a "real" car.
No shell will fix a poor handling car.
Tossolini is fast with a mazda6. If he had a beer mug for a shell he'd probably still be faster than most of us.
Protoform is a good company IMHO. I dont think they try to convince anyone they'll be "way-faster" by using their products... I like them because they come with pre-cut masks, and the lexan is good quality.
I would be willing to bet the color of the paint on (in?) the shell has almost as much to do with how well it performs (from a psychological standpoint) sometimes..... I SWEAR I cant race a body thats colored green
I could care less if a shell mimics a "real" car.
No shell will fix a poor handling car.
Tossolini is fast with a mazda6. If he had a beer mug for a shell he'd probably still be faster than most of us.
Protoform is a good company IMHO. I dont think they try to convince anyone they'll be "way-faster" by using their products... I like them because they come with pre-cut masks, and the lexan is good quality.
I would be willing to bet the color of the paint on (in?) the shell has almost as much to do with how well it performs (from a psychological standpoint) sometimes..... I SWEAR I cant race a body thats colored green
05-14-2006, 11:55 PM
#58
Eh...I'm mostly jabbing Dale. Anyhow...My point has never been that we can turn just as fast laps with a shoebox instead of a slippery and aerodynamic body.
My point is that bodies with nearly the identical side and frontal area, plus similar wings DO provide nearly identical results.
What I'd like to see would be a rundown of various bodies Reynolds numbers and frontal area. That would be some interesing data. I'd like to compare the Proto Mazda 6, Proto Nemesis, Parma Alpha and Proto Stratus Mk II and III.
My point is that bodies with nearly the identical side and frontal area, plus similar wings DO provide nearly identical results.
What I'd like to see would be a rundown of various bodies Reynolds numbers and frontal area. That would be some interesing data. I'd like to compare the Proto Mazda 6, Proto Nemesis, Parma Alpha and Proto Stratus Mk II and III.
05-15-2006, 12:35 AM
#59
Dale- What you really ought to do is to get that mini windtunnel and start expirementing with real areo kits for RC cars. Undberbody diffusers, full underbody kits to speed up under car air flow, wheel well kits to reduce turbulence and keep the pressure under the car. Mabye even mess with some fans under the body 
. I don't know why this hasn't been explored yet, huge gains could be made in speed on the track if we had ultra slippery cars that generated the same (or more) amounts of downforce than we have now. Not to mention since no one else is doing it and you came out with it you'd be the dominate force in racing bodies for some time. Unless ROAR doesn't allow ground effects kits to be fitted onto RC's.
. I don't know why this hasn't been explored yet, huge gains could be made in speed on the track if we had ultra slippery cars that generated the same (or more) amounts of downforce than we have now. Not to mention since no one else is doing it and you came out with it you'd be the dominate force in racing bodies for some time. Unless ROAR doesn't allow ground effects kits to be fitted onto RC's.
05-15-2006, 02:13 AM
#60
To be honest - as much as i think it's funky to have aero bodies etc..
It would kill me if there was an AERO war in rc... as if there wasn't enough to worry about with new chassis, special editions, TiNitride this, zapped that, Lipo, brushless, special moulded graphite wings, supercapacitors, chassis flexures etc..
this is a FUN hobby! not a crazy techno spend fest..
I have just as much fun bashing in identical cars with a friend that i do on a track with 10 other cars..
>>edit<< - actually i have just as much fun with my friend's dodgy older than i am, tamiya "Grasshopper" kit with a stuffed gearbox, tires with no tread and pogo strings that threaten to flip the car when going around corners..
It would kill me if there was an AERO war in rc... as if there wasn't enough to worry about with new chassis, special editions, TiNitride this, zapped that, Lipo, brushless, special moulded graphite wings, supercapacitors, chassis flexures etc..
this is a FUN hobby! not a crazy techno spend fest..
I have just as much fun bashing in identical cars with a friend that i do on a track with 10 other cars..
>>edit<< - actually i have just as much fun with my friend's dodgy older than i am, tamiya "Grasshopper" kit with a stuffed gearbox, tires with no tread and pogo strings that threaten to flip the car when going around corners..