TC3 Assembly Tips, Factory Team Kit
02-25-2003, 07:56 PM
#167
Roborat-I think the TC3 is faster on a high traction surface for stock and 19 turn. Outdoors on a loose track the cars would be fairly equal. I got the opportunity recently to put an 11x2 in the TC3. I had more control with the Losi with the same motor. I would favor the Losi for Mod. Did not really get the TC3 working well with the 11x2. It was just too wickedly fast and overworked the tires. I never felt hooked up. I ended up gearing higher to soften it a bit. When its warmer and I can use Sorex 36 tires I'll try the 11x2 again. The TC3 worked great with a 12x2 that had a little less power. I raced the 12x2 recently. Our track is a fairly technical tight track. Durability wise the axles and Hinge Pins on the Losi are a bit stronger than the TC3. The quality of the Losi kit is better. You don't have to hand fit a bunch of stuff. The Losi chassis does not warp from heat.
Last edited by John Stranahan; 02-26-2003 at 08:23 AM.
02-25-2003, 09:04 PM
#168
John: actually i've had both kits myself and i must say that thats probabaly the same comment i would have of both cars. in stock and spec racing, the TC3 is really tough to beat. in mod i just cant seem to go as fast as my i do then when im using my XXXS - simply easier to control as you say for mod racing and especially since i mostly run 10t and below. but, at the end of the day, they both are defenitely great cars - two of the best in my opinion. 
can't really go wrong with either of them.
... by the way, the 4505s are the brushes that come with the C2 right? thanks for the insight on them. I was almost about to give up on them but will give them another shot this weekend. the serrations are now worn thru so i will cut the comm and clean the arm and brush hoods, try out other brush spring rates and see how things go this weekend. it was enough to keep me in second in our first outing but i felt the motor was a tad too lazy .... a bit more power is always welcome.
can't really go wrong with either of them.... by the way, the 4505s are the brushes that come with the C2 right? thanks for the insight on them. I was almost about to give up on them but will give them another shot this weekend. the serrations are now worn thru so i will cut the comm and clean the arm and brush hoods, try out other brush spring rates and see how things go this weekend. it was enough to keep me in second in our first outing but i felt the motor was a tad too lazy .... a bit more power is always welcome.
Last edited by ROBORAT; 02-25-2003 at 09:15 PM.
02-26-2003, 01:08 AM
#169
Hi guys. Greetings from Malta.
JOHN S.
Interesting comment about brushes. I found the same thing with mine.
I run my Yoke Sp in the 21 turn stock class with Orion Bullet laydown brushes. As you say, they get really good after a few runs. In fact, although they are quoted as 2 to 6 runs I find they are at their best nearer the 6th run.
I agree too with your comments about TC3s with hot mod motors. As you know, my son Josh runs his in mod. He is ballistic with it, but I just can't control it. Everything happens way too fast for my 56 year old reflexes.
Since I last wrote about the car wandering down the straight I have done 3 things which have improved it. I raised the rear ride height to 6mm - before both front and rear were 5mm. I put 1 degree of toe out in front - before they were parallel. I reverted to the original front tower - before I was trying a rear tower up front.
I don't know if all three have contributed to the improvement, or any particular one of them, but it's quite a bit better and that's all that matters.
Hopefully I can get Josh to spend some time at the track this evening........if I'm lucky!
regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
JOHN S.
Interesting comment about brushes. I found the same thing with mine.
I run my Yoke Sp in the 21 turn stock class with Orion Bullet laydown brushes. As you say, they get really good after a few runs. In fact, although they are quoted as 2 to 6 runs I find they are at their best nearer the 6th run.
I agree too with your comments about TC3s with hot mod motors. As you know, my son Josh runs his in mod. He is ballistic with it, but I just can't control it. Everything happens way too fast for my 56 year old reflexes.
Since I last wrote about the car wandering down the straight I have done 3 things which have improved it. I raised the rear ride height to 6mm - before both front and rear were 5mm. I put 1 degree of toe out in front - before they were parallel. I reverted to the original front tower - before I was trying a rear tower up front.
I don't know if all three have contributed to the improvement, or any particular one of them, but it's quite a bit better and that's all that matters.
Hopefully I can get Josh to spend some time at the track this evening........if I'm lucky!
regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
02-26-2003, 02:26 AM
#170
johnbull: actually a lot of brushes work better with the serrations worn away. i find the same thing is true for the Putnam Pros (blue & green shunt combo). the 4505s are just one of those compounds that im not quite familiar with. not exactly sure how they compare to the Reedy 766s, 767s, Fantom 315s, Trinity 4499s, and the Putnnams coz i dont know how much silver/copper are in them. i ran 5 heats on the 4505s last weekend but was not that satisfied with the power the motor put out - other guys were faster using similar batts and gearing. after inspection of the brushes when i got home, i noticed the serrations were almost completely worn off so maybe after my usual motor maintenance routine, deglazing the brushes, flushing out the factory grease in the bearings, hood alignment, and some Good 'ol Tribo, the 4505s brushes might yet prove to be of some worth to me. i just dint have the luxury of doing all the tuning stuff last saturday coz I just opened the new C2 on track just before the race and had to just slap it onto the car and run it as is. fortunately it was enough to place me 2nd on the grid and finish 2nd overall. hopefully things will turn out better this weekend. if i get to improve on my 19.1 best laptime and get closer to the 18.9 that the fast guy on our track had (he finished 1st) then i'll be happy. will keep you guys posted.
will keep you guys posted.
Last edited by ROBORAT; 02-26-2003 at 02:32 AM.
02-26-2003, 07:25 AM
#171
More on Brushes
Thanks for the posts.
I believe the Chamelian II comes with 4499 compound brushes. They are not serrated and take forever to break in. More than 30 minutes last time I tried. This is a high silver brush.
A newer trinity compound is the 4499 plus compound. Just a little more silver than the 4499. The part number for the brush with cross cut serrations which I prefer and no terminals is RC 4505 NT.
The Reedy 767 brush is softer than either of the above brushes. No indication on their web site as to its composition. The 768 is the same brush with a slot. The 769 is the same brush with a hole. The hole in the 769 removes more brush surface than the slot and works well in a touring car in stock once the serrations are gone. These tend to be short lived in a Chamelion II
I believe the Chamelian II comes with 4499 compound brushes. They are not serrated and take forever to break in. More than 30 minutes last time I tried. This is a high silver brush.
A newer trinity compound is the 4499 plus compound. Just a little more silver than the 4499. The part number for the brush with cross cut serrations which I prefer and no terminals is RC 4505 NT.
The Reedy 767 brush is softer than either of the above brushes. No indication on their web site as to its composition. The 768 is the same brush with a slot. The 769 is the same brush with a hole. The hole in the 769 removes more brush surface than the slot and works well in a touring car in stock once the serrations are gone. These tend to be short lived in a Chamelion II
02-26-2003, 08:10 AM
#172
Don't forget bent lower arm hinge pins -- especially for the front arms. 
A lot of folks "check" for bent hinge pins by just disconnecting the shock and seeing if the arm moves freely up and down. That is not a good enough check. The front bumper should be removed and the hinge pin pulled all the way out through the arm to see if it come out smoothly.
I do an extra step of putting the hinge pin through a spare arm just to make sure it isn't kinked up. Sometimes the hinge pin holes in the arm in the car are sometimes stretched out so detecting a mildly bent hinge pin is harder - which is why I put it through a new arm.
-Rich
A lot of folks "check" for bent hinge pins by just disconnecting the shock and seeing if the arm moves freely up and down. That is not a good enough check. The front bumper should be removed and the hinge pin pulled all the way out through the arm to see if it come out smoothly.
I do an extra step of putting the hinge pin through a spare arm just to make sure it isn't kinked up. Sometimes the hinge pin holes in the arm in the car are sometimes stretched out so detecting a mildly bent hinge pin is harder - which is why I put it through a new arm.
-Rich
Originally posted by John Stranahan
Joe- My TC3 does not wander on the straight. I use only 4 degrees of caster in the caster blocks no kickup. Some things that cause wander.
tight hub pivots. Disconnect the steering link make sure they rotate easy.
Loose servo saver. The steering rack is not able to follow the servo closely.
Toe out. Live with the wander to improve initial turn in.
Gritchy steering rack. The rack tends to build up a nasty gritch right on center. Scrape it good till the rack moves easy near the center with all the links popped loose.
Joe- My TC3 does not wander on the straight. I use only 4 degrees of caster in the caster blocks no kickup. Some things that cause wander.
tight hub pivots. Disconnect the steering link make sure they rotate easy.
Loose servo saver. The steering rack is not able to follow the servo closely.
Toe out. Live with the wander to improve initial turn in.
Gritchy steering rack. The rack tends to build up a nasty gritch right on center. Scrape it good till the rack moves easy near the center with all the links popped loose.
02-26-2003, 11:00 AM
#173
Hi guys. Greetings from Malta.
Thanks for comments and suggestions about brushes.
Just got back from the track, with some useful info.
1) My 21 turn stock Yokomo. I had a look at the motor this afternoon. The brushes were nicely bedded in - after about 6 or 7 runs, but not blued at all. So i just gave the comm a light skim and assembled with the same brushes. I made exactly the same lap times despite more unfavorable conditions - cold, dark and very windy - although our track is flood lit, i'm afraid my eye sight still suffers.
I think what i'll do is put a new set of brushes in tomorrow and run them 3 or 4 runs then just skim and clean up before Sunday's race meeting.
2) Josh's TC3. He seems pretty pleased with it now. He did somepretty impressive times. However on the second run be bounced over a kerb and landed on full throttle. As the car came down the straight it sounded wrong - rough. At the end of the run I took the body off and.....you've guessed - the new alloy centre shaft was bent.
So tomorrow morning the old reliable carbon one that's been on the car 3 years will go back in.
Must go. It's 8pm and Missus will be waiting for dinner!
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
Thanks for comments and suggestions about brushes.
Just got back from the track, with some useful info.
1) My 21 turn stock Yokomo. I had a look at the motor this afternoon. The brushes were nicely bedded in - after about 6 or 7 runs, but not blued at all. So i just gave the comm a light skim and assembled with the same brushes. I made exactly the same lap times despite more unfavorable conditions - cold, dark and very windy - although our track is flood lit, i'm afraid my eye sight still suffers.
I think what i'll do is put a new set of brushes in tomorrow and run them 3 or 4 runs then just skim and clean up before Sunday's race meeting.
2) Josh's TC3. He seems pretty pleased with it now. He did somepretty impressive times. However on the second run be bounced over a kerb and landed on full throttle. As the car came down the straight it sounded wrong - rough. At the end of the run I took the body off and.....you've guessed - the new alloy centre shaft was bent.
So tomorrow morning the old reliable carbon one that's been on the car 3 years will go back in.
Must go. It's 8pm and Missus will be waiting for dinner!
Regards
Joe from sunny Malta.
02-26-2003, 06:27 PM
#174
john s: actually the stock brushes aren't 4499s. They're a different compound. i totally forgot the exact part number, so I assumed they were the 4505s you were mentioning- sorry about that. the part # of the brushes are actually stated at the back of the packaging of the C2 .... i just forgot what specifically but im sure thye're not 4499s coz thats thats what i was hoping to see in the back of the packaging but got thrown off when i discovered it was a totally "alien" compound to me. will check out the compound when i get home and let you guys know. with regards to the Reedy brushes, you're right - the 768s and 769s are the same compound as the 767s.... with just variations on the brush surfaces. i do prefer to use the 767s as they are not as abbrasive as the T-4499s (aka E-Brush) but give very good power without "killing" your comm. the Putnams are even more abbrasive than the 4499s. i wouldnt use any of those brushes in a TC without the use of Tribo lube. ... actually i wouldnt run any brush without Tribo nowadays. its the only stuff that ive tried that actually works in prolonging comm life and increases the motors power.
Last edited by ROBORAT; 02-26-2003 at 06:30 PM.
02-27-2003, 03:12 PM
#175
Tech Adept
Chamelion II
I see that the current motor is coming with 4070 brushes and red on positive and green on negative. This is a change from the previous motor.
02-27-2003, 03:15 PM
#176
Tech Adept
Hey, Can you guys start posting in the tc3 forum. It's really annoying going back and forth. Thanks a lot.
02-27-2003, 05:38 PM
#177
sorry to say i'm not a big fan of the new monster stock from trinity. i'll stick to the MVP reedy. everyone i race with seems to be cared about RPM this RPM that. what these people seem to forget is that out can convert torque into RPM by gearing the motor higher to get the desired RPM. With the up in torque the motor can take overgearing easier then a motor based on RPM only.
02-27-2003, 06:33 PM
#178
Tweeter: I am far from an expert, but i have driven my fair share of motors and the monster is great. I geared my TC3 at 7.2 on a rather tight track and it had enough torque to kick the rear around when needed and it never topped out on the straight.
I am also a big fan of the MVP, but the monster is turning out some increadable numbers. I know its impossible to actually change someones mind when they like something, but i wanted to stick in my opposing position.
I am also a big fan of the MVP, but the monster is turning out some increadable numbers. I know its impossible to actually change someones mind when they like something, but i wanted to stick in my opposing position.
02-27-2003, 06:49 PM
#179
blitz is right. i checked the packaging of the C2 last night and they are indeed 4070s! now where do those brushes fall in relation to the whole spectrum of brushes available out there? - beats the hell outta me! 
he he he would anyone know? blitz?
john: just rebuilt my C2 last night. its spankingly clean now, i degreased the factory grease out of the bearings and replaced with a dab of Tribo, cut the com, aligned the hoods so the wear mark on the brushes are smack down the middle - as usual the factory alignment was way off! they were wearing on the leading edge of the positive and the trailing edge of the negative brushes. i slapped on a new set of 4499s, broke them in @ 3v til fully seated, tore down the motor again and made a light skim cut on the comm then rebuilt it. unfortunately the only dyno i have is the track so i'll let you guys know how it turn out. these things always work for me though, especially the hood alignment, so there's sure to be an improvement.
i checked the packaging of the C2 last night and they are indeed 4070s! now where do those brushes fall in relation to the whole spectrum of brushes available out there? - beats the hell outta me! he he he would anyone know? blitz?john: just rebuilt my C2 last night. its spankingly clean now, i degreased the factory grease out of the bearings and replaced with a dab of Tribo, cut the com, aligned the hoods so the wear mark on the brushes are smack down the middle - as usual the factory alignment was way off! they were wearing on the leading edge of the positive and the trailing edge of the negative brushes. i slapped on a new set of 4499s, broke them in @ 3v til fully seated, tore down the motor again and made a light skim cut on the comm then rebuilt it. unfortunately the only dyno i have is the track so i'll let you guys know how it turn out. these things always work for me though, especially the hood alignment, so there's sure to be an improvement.
Last edited by ROBORAT; 02-27-2003 at 06:51 PM.
02-27-2003, 06:51 PM
#180
Originally posted by mab_man20
Well i went back to work on the gears armed with all of your advice. I finally figured out what is causing the noise, but am not 100% on what will fix it.
I removed the shaft, with the rear shaft assembly and diff in place and diff cover on, i slowly rotated the gears. Sometimes the gears would move freely, but at odd intervals (not a regular pattern
) it would feel absolutely horrible (you could feel the gears interfering with eachother).
So now that i know what it is. How to fix it.... My first guess was that the diff case deformed a little, so it was no longer perpendicular to the pinion. But the irregularity is baffling. Sometimes I can spin the diff 1.25 times around until it hits the bad spot, other times it is more like .75 times. Also the "length" of the bad spot is irregular; sometimes about .25 spins other times .5-.75 spins. The "total" of a rough spot and a free spot are never one full rotation.
I messed with the shims (moved for and aft of the rear bearing) with no noticible change. All the gears involved are brand new, and the old set of gears experienced the same problem.
Thanks in advance.
Well i went back to work on the gears armed with all of your advice. I finally figured out what is causing the noise, but am not 100% on what will fix it.
I removed the shaft, with the rear shaft assembly and diff in place and diff cover on, i slowly rotated the gears. Sometimes the gears would move freely, but at odd intervals (not a regular pattern
) it would feel absolutely horrible (you could feel the gears interfering with eachother). So now that i know what it is. How to fix it.... My first guess was that the diff case deformed a little, so it was no longer perpendicular to the pinion. But the irregularity is baffling. Sometimes I can spin the diff 1.25 times around until it hits the bad spot, other times it is more like .75 times. Also the "length" of the bad spot is irregular; sometimes about .25 spins other times .5-.75 spins. The "total" of a rough spot and a free spot are never one full rotation.
I messed with the shims (moved for and aft of the rear bearing) with no noticible change. All the gears involved are brand new, and the old set of gears experienced the same problem.
Thanks in advance.
Coxy.