303LikesXRAY T4'21 Spec
12-06-2020, 08:05 AM
#76
Tech Rookie
Just try replacing the suspension pills. On other brands cars, I've had that issue and the fix was simply changing out the pills for a different set. Not sure if that's the cause of your issue or not but it's worth trying.
On another note I just finished building three T4'21 kits. Cars went together perfectly. Really happy I made the switch back! Can't wait to get them on track.
On another note I just finished building three T4'21 kits. Cars went together perfectly. Really happy I made the switch back! Can't wait to get them on track.
12-07-2020, 12:08 AM
#77
Tech Apprentice
To keep things simple: PSS improves steering and helps with traction, also supports the nose of the chassis thus reducing chassis scrub. I've incorporated the PSS in the front shocks and is "part of the car" running on the carpet, don't think I'll ever remove the PSS. Also you wouldn't run the PSS in the rear, not recommended so to speak.
We are able to run the higher roll centers because of the longer arms. This has generated more overall grip and corner speed. Running the higher roll centers using the short arms would make the car harder to drive and give the opposite affect that we are getting from the 20 and 21 model. We are discovering more ways to generate more traction and corner speed with the longer arms and the higher roll center is paying off.
We are able to run the higher roll centers because of the longer arms. This has generated more overall grip and corner speed. Running the higher roll centers using the short arms would make the car harder to drive and give the opposite affect that we are getting from the 20 and 21 model. We are discovering more ways to generate more traction and corner speed with the longer arms and the higher roll center is paying off.
12-07-2020, 07:33 AM
#78
) version had the same issue from day 1... the rear RR mounting holes were not drilled symmetrically. No pill change, setup bench set, RR block change, axle change, baby nappy or whatever help change could do anything to it, it was just drilled wrong by a good 1 degree...so it happens sometimes. And, yes, even though you CAN theoretically get a new one from the importer if you send yours back it is such a PITA to dismantle everything that I just used a +0.5 on one side and a -0.5 on the other, and this was it. But still...
My '20 is straight as an I though
12-07-2020, 07:35 PM
#79
Interesting thing about toe from inboard rear pills, you cannot correct the toe "difference" shown on a standard setup guage (i.e. plate like on the Hudy) by changing the inboard pills. A difference shown on the gauge for inboard toe in is not what you may think.
I know this sounds strange and unbelievable, if you don't believe me, as you shouldn't just take my word for it, set one side to 5 degrees and the other side to 1 degree and look at what it says on the guage. Look at the wheels and it will be absolutely obvious that one side is ~5 degrees and the other at ~1 degree (just observation based). Compare to the guage, and you may doubt everything you know. 😋
Before you attempt to correct this by using mismatched pills and make your rear toe far worst, perform that experiment. Just as interesting, if you try to correct ("tweak") your toe difference by shifting the suspension mount slightly, which ive noticed is common, you actually make any correction TWICE as bad by doing so!
There is a simple reason for this, and a just as simple reason that the guage shows this mismatch, I'll leave that as spoiler for now. 😉
I know this sounds strange and unbelievable, if you don't believe me, as you shouldn't just take my word for it, set one side to 5 degrees and the other side to 1 degree and look at what it says on the guage. Look at the wheels and it will be absolutely obvious that one side is ~5 degrees and the other at ~1 degree (just observation based). Compare to the guage, and you may doubt everything you know. 😋
Before you attempt to correct this by using mismatched pills and make your rear toe far worst, perform that experiment. Just as interesting, if you try to correct ("tweak") your toe difference by shifting the suspension mount slightly, which ive noticed is common, you actually make any correction TWICE as bad by doing so!
There is a simple reason for this, and a just as simple reason that the guage shows this mismatch, I'll leave that as spoiler for now. 😉
12-07-2020, 07:51 PM
#80
Also, if toe is set entirely by blocks (no ARS) no camber could possibly change the toe, try changing the rear camber and see if this is the case.
Note, if your toe is equal AND doesn't change at all with camber (adjusting both sides not just one side) then you won't see any results of these experiments!
Note, if your toe is equal AND doesn't change at all with camber (adjusting both sides not just one side) then you won't see any results of these experiments!
12-08-2020, 04:23 AM
#81
Tech Adept
Interesting thing about toe from inboard rear pills, you cannot correct the toe "difference" shown on a standard setup guage (i.e. plate like on the Hudy) by changing the inboard pills. A difference shown on the gauge for inboard toe in is not what you may think.
I know this sounds strange and unbelievable, if you don't believe me, as you shouldn't just take my word for it, set one side to 5 degrees and the other side to 1 degree and look at what it says on the guage. Look at the wheels and it will be absolutely obvious that one side is ~5 degrees and the other at ~1 degree (just observation based). Compare to the guage, and you may doubt everything you know. 😋
I know this sounds strange and unbelievable, if you don't believe me, as you shouldn't just take my word for it, set one side to 5 degrees and the other side to 1 degree and look at what it says on the guage. Look at the wheels and it will be absolutely obvious that one side is ~5 degrees and the other at ~1 degree (just observation based). Compare to the guage, and you may doubt everything you know. 😋
12-08-2020, 05:28 AM
#82
I have had issues with every TC that I owned that had toe set with pills in a block, mainly it is the block. When screwing in the block it gets slightly pulled one way or the other, every car I had did this. You have to find the right way of tightening the screws for the outer and inner blocks. If I remember correctly, it is more on the inner blocks than the outer blocks that cause the issue. I remember struggling with this, then another guy looks at my car and unscrews all the blocks, then screws them in a weird order and it was dead nuts on. Then I did it my way again and it was off. But if you want to get rid of the issue all together, jump ship and come drive what I drive now, lol. 
12-08-2020, 08:11 AM
#83
right... I knew this would not fly on the forum, how silly of me to dare insinuate that the car was not manufacture properly, OF COURSE it must be my assymetric assembling skills after assembling pretty much every T4 under the sun since the first one was released that make me believe that ONLY my '19 was cranked out of the factory not quite right
Those of you who have experienced the crooked manufacturing of the first-gen XB4's (yup, had one of these too... ) rear suspension will know better
Still like the brand (although I've bought something even more communist for the winter season, but then again, we have no winter season it seemss
), but without blinders
All the best
paul
Those of you who have experienced the crooked manufacturing of the first-gen XB4's (yup, had one of these too... ) rear suspension will know better
Still like the brand (although I've bought something even more communist for the winter season, but then again, we have no winter season it seemss
), but without blinders All the best
paul
12-08-2020, 08:24 AM
#84
I remember one of the toe blocks was off a few years ago in the XB4. It was denied for a bit until Xray found the dimensional issue, then they offered free replacements.
12-08-2020, 08:56 AM
#85
Basically, the toe guage doesn't show absolute toe, but toe with "reference" to the other side (consider the mounting points). So for inboard toe in the rear, by only looking at the plate you can't actually know if the toe is off or..... if one arm is slightly more forward than the other! If the right arm is even a tiny bit more forward than the left it will show as having less toe than the left.
In the front this is still true too, but since there is always little to no inboard toe it takes a larger difference to cause misleading results on the guage, so is best to just ignore that.
I was frustrated one day that I couldn't correct the rear toe, it seemed like no matter what I did it was off, I eventually just put extreme opposite pills on the left vs right and the guage still said like 3 degrees on both sides (or whatever the average was) but the difference "between" the two was still showing the same amount!
Basically, the guage is working perfectly for what it is, but it is not usable for inboard toe differences whatsoever since it will effectively always "average" the left and right, and any difference between the two shown on the plate is a wheelbase error; toe error may still be there but it will not discernable with that tool. The worst part is that since this is true, adjusting the blocks etc. to make small corrections in what you think is fixing the toe error is just creating an additional unknown and equally likely to be making it worst as making it better.
In the front this is still true too, but since there is always little to no inboard toe it takes a larger difference to cause misleading results on the guage, so is best to just ignore that.
I was frustrated one day that I couldn't correct the rear toe, it seemed like no matter what I did it was off, I eventually just put extreme opposite pills on the left vs right and the guage still said like 3 degrees on both sides (or whatever the average was) but the difference "between" the two was still showing the same amount!
Basically, the guage is working perfectly for what it is, but it is not usable for inboard toe differences whatsoever since it will effectively always "average" the left and right, and any difference between the two shown on the plate is a wheelbase error; toe error may still be there but it will not discernable with that tool. The worst part is that since this is true, adjusting the blocks etc. to make small corrections in what you think is fixing the toe error is just creating an additional unknown and equally likely to be making it worst as making it better.
Last edited by Tremor24; 12-09-2020 at 12:38 PM.
12-08-2020, 08:59 AM
#86
right... I knew this would not fly on the forum, how silly of me to dare insinuate that the car was not manufacture properly, OF COURSE it must be my assymetric assembling skills after assembling pretty much every T4 under the sun since the first one was released that make me believe that ONLY my '19 was cranked out of the factory not quite right
Those of you who have experienced the crooked manufacturing of the first-gen XB4's (yup, had one of these too... ) rear suspension will know better
Still like the brand (although I've bought something even more communist for the winter season, but then again, we have no winter season it seemss ), but without blinders
All the best
paul
Those of you who have experienced the crooked manufacturing of the first-gen XB4's (yup, had one of these too... ) rear suspension will know better
Still like the brand (although I've bought something even more communist for the winter season, but then again, we have no winter season it seemss
), but without blinders All the best
paul
12-08-2020, 09:11 AM
#87
Also, it's not useful to try to correct "this" wheelbase error without a lot of work either. Without out going into too much detail as to why, on average (unless it's really bad) you're better off ignoring it because even a tiny wheelbase difference will show as an issue. There may "actually be" a slight toe error side to side and adjusting the wheelbase alone to make it look correct on the plate may STILL be worst than not messing with it.
In other words, don't use a toe plate if the toe-in is inboard if trying to correct a toe difference, it will typically just be misleading and make make things worst with nearly every obvious correction. Don't try to make small corrections to inboard toe in with the toe plate alone as the measurement tool.
A quick proof of this, if you're interested, set your rear camber equal on both sides, check the toe value on either side, change the camber on both sides (from 1 to 3 degrees or whatever). Check the toe again, if it's at all different, then you know there is a wheelbase error as the toe can never, ideally, change with camber for the single link (camber only) type system.
However, if you just want to check what the inboard toe is set to (if you're not sure) you can actually average the value shown on both sides. (Add them and divide by two).
This is a rare case where it may have been better to never notice the difference. 🤣
Hope this is interesting to someone
In other words, don't use a toe plate if the toe-in is inboard if trying to correct a toe difference, it will typically just be misleading and make make things worst with nearly every obvious correction. Don't try to make small corrections to inboard toe in with the toe plate alone as the measurement tool.
A quick proof of this, if you're interested, set your rear camber equal on both sides, check the toe value on either side, change the camber on both sides (from 1 to 3 degrees or whatever). Check the toe again, if it's at all different, then you know there is a wheelbase error as the toe can never, ideally, change with camber for the single link (camber only) type system.
However, if you just want to check what the inboard toe is set to (if you're not sure) you can actually average the value shown on both sides. (Add them and divide by two).
This is a rare case where it may have been better to never notice the difference. 🤣
Hope this is interesting to someone
Last edited by Tremor24; 12-10-2020 at 12:09 AM.
12-08-2020, 09:42 AM
#88
Think I'll go finish my book🤷♂️😵
12-11-2020, 08:48 AM
#89
Anyone know when the 1.6mm 2021 upper deck is coming out? (would prefer not to buy a 2020 1.6mm)
12-11-2020, 10:21 AM
#90
Suspended