Hyper_Mike

iTrader: (8)

I would agree with that except for the situation where the spec calls for a car with almost no adjustments (TT01 with no upgrades, for example), specific tires, specific EVERYTHING. The leeway for setup is so narrow that it's virtually impossible to learn. The cars will likely be quite even and the fastest drivers will ALMOST ALWAYS win but no-one will learn much of anything!

The result will be, as Granpa rightly points out, a fairly quick death for the class as those who will NEVER be as fast as the fastest drivers realize that it's never going to happen and leave.

Cheers,
Mike

newbie2009

Granpa, thank you again. you're point of view well taken and noted.

To others on this thread:

Is attaching a magnet on motor while racing legal? Definitely illegal, every organizer will agree.

So when can altering magnetic field by unzapping/zapping 540 class be legal? Never from an organizer's point of view.

Just because organizers cannot police, does not make an illegal act legal.

Thank you for opportunity to share my point of view.

Matt Smith

Let me rephrase that. Classes which have to use a certain motor such as New Zealand's 540 "stock" class or our 27 turn class "pro-stock" are good because they mean that the driver is learning setup skills.

A-Ko

iTrader: (2)

The interesting point to this topic is depending on the series, really anything is legal unless otherwise indicated in the rules.

Like in TCS only a 53689 is allowed, two 1"x1" motor fans, any heat sink, etc. Many people will read between the lines and creatively interpet the rules according to their experimentation and conscience. I could list a whole bunch of things that you can do, if the rules were this simple.

If you go to the Nationals, many did try to push the envelope by dropping the motor in their laps and trying to do something before tech. Not all races will have a 8 person tech team, impound rules or know what to look for when it comes to these motors. I have been to races where kids ran tech and did only the basics in chassis height and simple illegal parts.

I never owned a red dot but I am sure time and effort went in when it comes to break-in. As mentioned earlier, there are no short-cuts to this style of racing. The key is seating the brushes, com cleaning and breaking in the bushings without over heating the motor. If you are looking for shortcuts the motor, then you might ask what shortcuts you took with your gearing, tire inserts and chassis setup?

It is not all about the motor, although a great motor does help. . .

Granpa

Sent you a PM to answer the questions you asked.

You know that in some countries, it's legal to beat your wife. In others, it could be interpreted as illegal if you fart in the same room. It really sort of depends on where you are.

Hope you enjoyed the analogy. No offence meant.

monkeyracing

iTrader: (10)

Aah, good point, but if you look at the TCS rules, or the rules for my rc club for that matter, there is a clause that states that if something is not covered in the rules, it is illegal. We tell people exactly what they may do, and anything outside of that is not cool.

Yes, people will push to interpret rules, but that phrase allows race organizers and admins freedom to deal with things as they see fit.

BTW: Granpa, RCCARDR, I haven't intended any offense in any of my previous posts. I tend to play devil's advocate an awful lot to try to get to the core of the question. Sometimes it comes off as rude. Sorry if it did.

Jim

SirSwiftAlot

iTrader: (11)

If the rules state that you cannot zap the magnets then it has been said and if you feel a fellow racer is cheating call him or her on it and let the race director handle it from there. If the rules don't say it then by all means do what you can to be the fastest. In the TCS Regionals I won two events and both motors I had were very fast and when it came to Nationals I qualified 2nd and finished 2nd were the tech procedures were closley monitored allowing no touch rules to the motor for the exception of cleaning them with motor spray and the supplied lube. We were not allowed to take the motors back to our pits before each race we sat down and were given our motors and a tech person watched us put it in. After the race the cars went into tech and we turn marshaled after that it was back to tech to be watched again as we pulled out our motors and handed them back to the tech person and off to the pits we went. So I say my motors had nothing to do with nationals but I still did pretty good 2nd out of 47 guys and there are only two reasons why I did that well one was my setup was awesome and second my driving was as good as I could get. So the moral of the story is perfect your setup skills then be able to honestly say that you drove a perfect race and if you don't win becuase of motor then you can bitch or go out and buy a red dot and spank there ass then you will be the guy with the target on his back its not fun. Trust me I speak from experience I was called a cheater at nationals when there was no way anyone could have, now thats a true compliment if I have ever been given one. By the way my first regional win was powered by a red dot motor and if not for that motor I would not have been able to win. ( Doc you owe me some advertisment money ) Now I have my Grandma tune all my motors she is pretty handy with a dyno.

tc3team

I could look at that statement in an example where someone who is real good with motors tune the hell and back outta one, do everything by the book that is legal and be disqualified for "cheating".

Or on the other end of the scale, you could possibly do a hell of a lot of illegal "tuning" to a motor before you go to an event such as TCS and it passes tech.

Im not saying this does happen, but it could.

Hence, I could quite agree with what Rob's saying in the right context.

Its a lot of hard work for tech, and for the racers to get right. Anyone serious about racing is gonna push the rules, and tech will be there to hopefully see all is good in that motor.

It's not a nice call for tech if something doesnt seem "legal" and one reason why I have only ever club raced for 95% of my 15 years of racing. (Well, time and money too hehe )

If you get "caught" and you havn't knowingly got an illegal motor, you just gotta walk away with your head held high.

If you're knowingly not playing the game properly and got bust, well... cheaters never "truly" ... "win"

A-Ko

iTrader: (2)

It is too broad of a statement and I race under it.

Basically it states that everybody is illegal, if you follow this logic to it.

You cannot waterdip to seat the brushes, use motor spray to clean motors, use brass polish to clean the com or run the motors to break in the bushings. Those are not covered in the rules and usually most people do those things one way or another, so they must be illegal. I am sure everybody is saying, why that is crazy! Sure it is, again it is not listed as acceptable procedures covered under the rules, so it must be illegal.

If you think those things as being legal then you bent the rules, maybe even broke them. Consider the other creative things like zapping, crimping, cranking or even arm replacement. Have people done those things, sure. Is it illegal again I refer to the previous paragraph and what people are already doing.

It comes down to a person's conscience to what they deem legal or illegal. Which I attribute to the broad statement if something is not covered in the rules, it is illegal.Depending on the person, persons character or internal understanding of things, you are dealing with a broad statement that needs to be narrowed.

For silvercans, "cheating" is where one person stops or draws a line and another crosses it. If you have no guidelines in what the line is then it is open for people to cross. If you cannot list the points of a "cheat", then either nobody is a "cheater" or everybody is one. . . If somebody is fast, it is easy to say "cheater" what are they "cheating" if the rules are not black and white, what did they do? Water dip?

Maybe my point is extreme, the motor I am running now is probably illegal because I water dipped & seated the brushes, used metal polish on the bushings and com. I have not felt the need to zap, crank, crimp or replace the arm. The friends I race with use me as a benchmark to see how their techniques are comparing to mine, which we openly share. Maybe next race I will ask to swap motors with a friend to see how our motors really compare.

monkeyracing

iTrader: (10)

Well, I suppose that maybe I (and Tamiya's TCS rules) have a little more faith in people's common sense than do you.

I think the people in my club are smart enough to know what's right and wrong, and how to apply the rules. We do have a standing rule if someone is suddenly dominant, then we will tech their car. We'd rather trust people, but push the right buttons, and we'll react.

Common sense is what it comes down to. If someone wants to be an idiot, we will show them the door.

Jim

squearl

iTrader: (19)

Common sense is not common.

robk

iTrader: (22)

You have no idea. I already have 9 Johnson motors that I am working on. So stick it.

Granpa

Ray, noticed you were on this thread. How've you been, buddy. Is Aliso on your schedule this year???? Hope it is.

A-Ko

iTrader: (2)

I see a ton of common sense on a local level year round.

When you get to the bigger races like regional or national races, that is where common sense goes bye bye.

I am happy to see TCS do the militant lockdown at this years nationals. I hope it is a start to furthering the rules to these motors that they have been trying to define at the past few nationals.

monkeyracing

iTrader: (10)

That local level is where my club is, for sure. We've got 30-40 members altogether, and are not affiliated with any larger organizations or leagues. This does keep things managable. We get about 20-25 racers at our weekly race night.

Some club members do race elsewhere, and at larger events, so the policing for those events falls to those organizers.

At our club level, I keep an eye on things, make sure everyone knows we're doing this just for fun, and it seems to work out pretty well. A little walk through the pits each week, talk with the people, and hope that it keeps on working out.

Jim