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Old 11-01-2001, 05:44 PM   #691
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Quote:
Originally posted by Speedo
Question for you guys. I need to make the car more responsive, just a little. Currently I'm running 40wt and #3's all around. Would switching to 50wt with #2's make the car more responsive? Rather, would the change in piston have a bigger effect than the change in oil?

Josh
Try stiffening front springs, or reducing front shock length.
The results : More responsive, a little bit understeer
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Old 11-01-2001, 06:57 PM   #692
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Does anyone not listen to me? hehehe Anyways, what sway bar ya using? Upper or lower front? Just curious. What exactly are you looking for? Maybe you need more droop so that the tires stay more in contact with the ground when cornering. I assume you are looking for more steering response? More droop up front with lower sway bar. Try that. What is your current setup might I ask? I notice alot of carpet guys run heavier oil with ultra stiff springs. Hmmm gotta be a balance somewhere....

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Old 11-01-2001, 07:18 PM   #693
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No, I'm running on carpet, and I only have yellows. I'm using the lower swaybar. A swaybar takes away traction at that end of the car, so it feels like to opposite end has more traction. Running swaybars all around will stop roll all around, use them if you are traction rolling. I think they also make the car more responsive, not sure on that though.

Dragonxmx- I am Josh and Speedo, I go by speedo, but my name is Josh Also, I think you can eliminate oil in compression because both the springs and oil would be working against compressing, while in decompression, the only the oil is resisting decompression, so it will stop the car from rolling back as fast, therefore less responsiveness, easier to drive.

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Old 11-01-2001, 07:33 PM   #694
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sounds good to me.

steve
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Old 11-01-2001, 07:39 PM   #695
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Quote:
Originally posted by StMedina
sounds good to me. if you find out, chances are thru experimenting, let us know.

i just checked the bmw m3 message board cause i have one coming in jan. everyone there is just arguing up a a storm about who is right and who is wrong. such idiots. anyhow, let us know what you find out. you know when you ask a question like that, like i've done before, you will get x amount of diff answers. the only tru way is to go try it and see what happens. like i said, i could be wrong, that's just what i've heard and tried and it worked. who knows.

i asked a friend of mine who put the yoke on the shelf, to try the new losi. he said get a losi. ha

steve
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Old 11-01-2001, 07:59 PM   #696
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Well I put my standard 40wt and #3's back in. I know it works! Anyway, I'm looking for responsiveness. Anything else I could do, besides fluid and pistons? I have the rear shocks layed in one hole, I think standing them up will make the car more responsive. Any one have any comments?

thanks
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Old 11-01-2001, 08:42 PM   #697
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Speedo What about moving your camber link down a hole on the shock tower? When ever I have done this it made the car more responsive. Standing the shocks up in the rear will move weight forward more. So it might do it but u will loose some side bit. U could also go to a lighter front swaybar. And if u are using the new rear a arms u can go to the shorter wheelbase setting or go to the old rear arms. Hope this helps....

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Old 11-01-2001, 09:23 PM   #698
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how should i gear my worlds with a stock motor on a sorta tight track. please help. thanks
kurt
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:40 AM   #699
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Quote:
Originally posted by Speedo


No, you are incorrect. Heavier oil will make the car less responsive. This is because oil hardly affects shock compression, you can't notice it. Oil comes into play when the shock decompresses. Take a shock with 80wt and a shock with 40wt, same pistons. The oil can be eliminated in the compression. So the two shocks will compress the same ammount on a given corner. However, when the shocks decompress, the shock with 80wt oil will take longer to decompress, so it will take the car longer to straighten out for the next corner. With lighter oil, the car will straighten up again much faster, so the car will be more responsive.

Josh
Josh, I think you might be wrong about the lighter (not thinner) oil making the car more responsive. Heavier oil applies the weight to the tires quicker, so instead of the energy being spent while the chassis is rolling, it is applied to the tires which makes the car react quicker. However, it also slows the chassis from rolling back to static position coming out of the turn which "feels" like it is reacting slow to the release of the turning action. So, this may be what you are translating into a slower reacting suspension. I certainly am not trying to start a pissing contest, so if you disagree or aren't sure, I'll find my information resources and post them for you.
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:41 AM   #700
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TK- thanks. I was thinking along the same lines. I think a stiffer front swaybar would make it more responsive though, because it would further stop roll. I was thinking that standing the shocks up in the rear would increase the vertical component and decrease the horizintal component, but I don't think I was right, it shouldn't make it anymore responsive. I'll try some things...

Thanks,
Josh
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Old 11-02-2001, 08:43 AM   #701
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BigDog- Yeah, I am inclined to disagree. It would help if you posted where you got the stuff.

Speedo
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Old 11-02-2001, 10:25 AM   #702
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Speedo - Heavier oil definitely affects compression as well as decompression of the shocks. Remember that we are talking about 3 or 4 millimeters of suspension movement (at most) when the car is on the track. One of the major influences of your TC car's handling, besides the actually spring rate itself, is the speed in which your car's weight transfers. The oil in your shock regulates the rate at which your spring compresses as well as decompresses. Depending on the length of time you apply a certain amount of force on your suspension, Thicker shock oil will affect your overall suspension movement. Remember, if for example you are taking a right turn. The oustide shock (left) and spring will begin to compress. But at the same time, the inside shock (right) and spring will begin to decompress. So in a similar fashion to droop setting, the slower decompression of one side affects how much and how fast the other side of the chassis will compress. The speed of weight transfer alters the spring's reaction to that weight. Faster weight transition will apply more force onto that spring.

In my years of racing, I have found that there is typically a piston/oil combo that matches up well with a particular spring rate. And typically you can't vere too far from that match.

As far as how it makes the car feel, It can go either way. Typically your car will lean more with the lighter oil. In some cases the car will feel more reactive. But light oil combined with a light spring (perhaps too light of a spring) will make the car "commit" to the turn which makes it feel less nimble or reactive. The same can be true if you use too heavy of an oil for the spring that you have on your car. The suspension will compress lazily and then stay preloaded longer than you would like it to. In some cases, this can feel similar to running a car with too soft of a spring with light oil.

I could go on and on and get into piston pack and all that other good stuff but maybe this is some good food for thought.
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Old 11-02-2001, 10:53 AM   #703
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Dave-
Quote:
Note that damping only alters the speed at which the rolling and pitching motions occur, it does not alter their extent.
Quote:
in the corner, the weight is transferred, and the chassis has rolled and/or dived, but when the steering is straightened out, and the cornering force disappears, the chassis comes back to its original position. The speed at which this happens is controlled by the damping rate.
So if the oil does affect compression, it is going to slow it down, not limit how much the shock compresses. Then when the car goes to roll back, with heavier oil, it will take longer (with the same sping) therefore making the car feel less responsive. On the other side, lighter oil will allow the shock to compress faster, and decompress faster, making the car feel more responsive.

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Old 11-02-2001, 01:32 PM   #704
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Default Shock Physics - The Drama continues

Speedo - but that's my point. If you slow the rate of compression down, you will alter the amount of compression in most cases. Its difficult to have this discussion without involving other aspects of the suspension. I can show you (or at least explain to you) that I can put a setup on a sedan leaving all settings the same except for the shock oil. By changing shock oil / piston, I can make the slower dampened (thicker oil or smaller holed pistons) setup make the car drive flatter and more responsive. This would be in the case of foam tires with fairly heavy springs on the car.

Again, much of this has to do with the inside wheel during a turn. The decompression of the inside shock will be slower with thicker oil. This will slow down how long it takes for your suspension to reach its lowest droop point. Depending on the length and sharpness of the turn, this has altered how much the car would lean if it had no oil in the shocks. Therefore the weight has been redistributed by the effects of the oil in the shock.
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Old 11-02-2001, 01:52 PM   #705
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Talking Shock Physics - The Drama Continues- Speedo's Reply

Dvae, I'm sure you understand way more than I do on the subject, but based on my experience with changing oils, and what I have read, I still have to disagree.

YES! It does slow the rate of compression, I understand that now. Bt on most corners, the shock will still compress the same ammount with heavier oil than with lighter oil. The shock may compress slower, but it is not going to compresss so slowly that it will not have compressed to it's full extent (the ammount it would compress with lighter oil). And once it has compressed as much as it is going to, it is going to take longer for it to decompress to take the next corner. The same goes for the inside shock, it will take longer to decompress with heavier oil, but then when it is time to compress to take the next corner, it will also be slower than with lighter oil. This means that the car is going to feel much easier to drive, not more responsive.

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