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Old 12-13-2016, 01:23 PM   #871
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You can spend hours on this, how and why it does what it does. That is something I would research when you have time to burn and can do test days at the track. Takes me 3-10 track days (5-8 hour days) to figure out a car and get the setup 90% right for me.... IMHO Got to put in the time.

Might be more productive short term to use the basic info in the Losi Handling Guide to get the car doing what you want it to do. I will point out that all my successful 4x4s use a smaller sway bar up front. Go back to box setup and after making a few laps, check ride height and adjust as needed. Then if you need more steering run a smaller sway bar, move front shocks to inside tower, run a softer spring up front or change the pills for less kickup. If you need more traction in rear when on power move rear hub forward one spacer. More side bite, move top of rear shocks to inside and camber link down a notch on tower.

If you want more specific help post your entire setup. I know there are several people here who can offer solutions if they know every adjustment you currently use. You just need to know what you want, more steering, more side bite, whatever it is after going back to box setup. Really trying to help, but we are blind without seeing the car. So many details are often left out of setups. Once you can see it on a setup sheet the picture is clear.
thanks but im not looking for setup help nor am i using that losi guide for setup information.

i was simply pointing out contradictions and asking one of the TLR team drivers to look into it as to not spread misinformation. based on everything i now from experience and have read/learned from credible sources, that article has misinformation in it.
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:35 PM   #872
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I pointed out the issue to the author. He technically does not work for TLR anymore but I am sure the info will be spread around.
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Old 12-13-2016, 01:44 PM   #873
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Originally Posted by lyons238 View Post
thanks but im not looking for setup help nor am i using that losi guide for setup information.

i was simply pointing out contradictions and asking one of the TLR team drivers to look into it as to not spread misinformation. based on everything i now from experience and have read/learned from credible sources, that article has misinformation in it.
I understand what you want to see happen. All of the information should match. I see this issue on other subjects often. I don't know if its misinformation or just the way this person thinks it should be explained. There will be some difference in how things are described or interpreted no matter what. Every guide was written by a different person and they do make mistakes. Might be difficult to get a TLR driver to spend much time on this, but I'm interested in the outcome.
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Old 12-13-2016, 02:26 PM   #874
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Originally Posted by wittyname View Post
Let me clarify ...

Springs control the weight transfer and oil dampens the springs. To correctly compensate for the added weight , you start with the springs not the oil. Controlling body roll and weight transfer with thick oil and soft springs just doesn't handle very well.
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Originally Posted by Thunder Trail View Post
I understand what you want to see happen. All of the information should match. I see this issue on other subjects often. I don't know if its misinformation or just the way this person thinks it should be explained. There will be some difference in how things are described or interpreted no matter what. Every guide was written by a different person and they do make mistakes. Might be difficult to get a TLR driver to spend much time on this, but I'm interested in the outcome.
It's not misinformation, it's that there are no absolutes in chassis setup. The geometry is constant, but the effect or result varies based on other factors.

For example, a softer rear spring will always increase rear roll/weight transfer. If the rear end is too stiff, then this should increase rotation and forward drive. If the rear end is already too soft, then this may make the rear over-dump, and lose grip on the rear tires. Because of this, you can't just say "a softer spring will increase rear grip" because that statement can often be true and also often be false.

Just like sometime rear roll center changes are more powerful, and sometimes the changes in camber gain are more powerful resulting in differing results from the same setup change.

Really, the guy is just trying to explain something simply and absolute because this is what people want to hear. Unfortunately, I don't think this stuff can ever be simple and absolute.
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Old 12-13-2016, 04:02 PM   #875
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I pointed out the issue to the author. He technically does not work for TLR anymore but I am sure the info will be spread around.
thanks casper, you have always been a huge help and an asset to the community. you helped me with my tlr cars back when.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Root View Post
It's not misinformation, it's that there are no absolutes in chassis setup. The geometry is constant, but the effect or result varies based on other factors.

For example, a softer rear spring will always increase rear roll/weight transfer. If the rear end is too stiff, then this should increase rotation and forward drive. If the rear end is already too soft, then this may make the rear over-dump, and lose grip on the rear tires. Because of this, you can't just say "a softer spring will increase rear grip" because that statement can often be true and also often be false.

Just like sometime rear roll center changes are more powerful, and sometimes the changes in camber gain are more powerful resulting in differing results from the same setup change.

Really, the guy is just trying to explain something simply and absolute because this is what people want to hear. Unfortunately, I don't think this stuff can ever be simple and absolute.
thanks frank, you have been a great help as well.

i kind of figured that instead of giving in general terms what the changes do he was giving specific information about the chassis. and also like i said before sometimes when you say this change "stablizes" the rear end, sometimes that means it can stabalize the rear end in corners but actually makes the rear end looser on straights, so descriptions require much context to make total sense.

however, typically i always think that raising the inner link will make the car roll less, no matter the chassis and thats why i was raising a flag just to make sure for myself and for others.

THANKS GUYS!!
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:08 AM   #876
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[QUOTE=lyons238;14765454]i have the hudy book already...and it opposes what the TLR article says...

the hudy book states that raising the inner camber link lowers the roll center and increases body roll - but the TLR article states that lowering the inner camber link provides more roll.

can you shed light on that? im going with my gut and what i've always known that raising the inner camber link lowers the roll center which in fact increases body roll.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by lyons238 View Post
thanks casper, you have always been a huge help and an asset to the community. you helped me with my tlr cars back when.




thanks frank, you have been a great help as well.

i kind of figured that instead of giving in general terms what the changes do he was giving specific information about the chassis. and also like i said before sometimes when you say this change "stablizes" the rear end, sometimes that means it can stabalize the rear end in corners but actually makes the rear end looser on straights, so descriptions require much context to make total sense.

however, typically i always think that raising the inner link will make the car roll less, no matter the chassis and thats why i was raising a flag just to make sure for myself and for others.

THANKS GUYS!!
Something seems off here ...

what you have always known and what your gut are telling you seem to be opposite .
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Old 12-14-2016, 02:31 PM   #877
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Been thinking about setup guides and such. Lyons has the same conclusion I have, raise link on tower for less roll. That is easy to understand without digging deeper into chassis setup terminology such as roll center.

When you describe the projected outcome of a change it is easier to grasp a basic understanding of how the car will perform with said change. IMO, that makes a tuning guide one of the best tools in any RC owners hands. I think about 80% of the people racing RC will never need anything else to have fun and a good handling car.

I like to understand how things work and why. After many years of racing in many forms I often research the technical side of just about everything so I have a better understanding of all factors concerning the subject. However, for the sake of simplicity I prefer discussing a chassis or setup change in terms of action and result. Example; I might tell my pit buddy that I'm moving the shock location inside on the tower to get more side bite. Getting into the effect of this change on progressive spring rate, shock motion ratio and leverage of the a arm angle serves no purpose. Getting too technical can often be a barrier when trying to help the new guy get knowledgeable enough to figure out his own handling problems.

How does that relate to the discussion? I don't know for sure that it does. It's just how I feel about setup guides. Keep it simple and more people can be a part of the discussion and maybe even learn something useful.

Here is one of my favorite links I like to share with others on basic setup info.
http://site.petitrc.com/reglages/BasicSuspensionTuning/
Few visual aids always help.
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Old 12-14-2016, 04:07 PM   #878
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I'm driving the original 1.0 SCTE truck. I have the dogbone center driveshafts, ball bearing steering rack, Tekno front & rear driveshafts, and the front arms, angled steering links, and 15* front carriers from the 3.0 truck. So all these parts have improved steering response on my truck. But I'm still looking for tighter steering radius on indoor medium to high traction tracks. I'm currently running a 5-5-3 diff setup. Obviously I don't have the ability to angle my motor with the old chassis layout. Should I increase my center diff fluid to 7k, or decrease it to 3k in order to try and get a smaller turning radius? I believe I'm looking for more on-throttle steering response. It's pushing wide, seems the front end isn't pulling it around hard enough. To clarify, this is AFTER I've sufficiently slowed down for the corner, so I'm not coming in TOO hot.
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Old 12-14-2016, 06:08 PM   #879
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Originally Posted by Jack Bonhomme View Post
I'm driving the original 1.0 SCTE truck. I have the dogbone center driveshafts, ball bearing steering rack, Tekno front & rear driveshafts, and the front arms, angled steering links, and 15* front carriers from the 3.0 truck. So all these parts have improved steering response on my truck. But I'm still looking for tighter steering radius on indoor medium to high traction tracks. I'm currently running a 5-5-3 diff setup. Obviously I don't have the ability to angle my motor with the old chassis layout. Should I increase my center diff fluid to 7k, or decrease it to 3k in order to try and get a smaller turning radius? I believe I'm looking for more on-throttle steering response. It's pushing wide, seems the front end isn't pulling it around hard enough. To clarify, this is AFTER I've sufficiently slowed down for the corner, so I'm not coming in TOO hot.
Id get a new truck that's not 8 years old.
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Old 12-14-2016, 09:52 PM   #880
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Originally Posted by Jack Bonhomme View Post
I'm driving the original 1.0 SCTE truck. I have the dogbone center driveshafts, ball bearing steering rack, Tekno front & rear driveshafts, and the front arms, angled steering links, and 15* front carriers from the 3.0 truck. So all these parts have improved steering response on my truck. But I'm still looking for tighter steering radius on indoor medium to high traction tracks. I'm currently running a 5-5-3 diff setup. Obviously I don't have the ability to angle my motor with the old chassis layout. Should I increase my center diff fluid to 7k, or decrease it to 3k in order to try and get a smaller turning radius? I believe I'm looking for more on-throttle steering response. It's pushing wide, seems the front end isn't pulling it around hard enough. To clarify, this is AFTER I've sufficiently slowed down for the corner, so I'm not coming in TOO hot.
You really need a 2.0 with a -3mm chassis, or the 3.0. Moving the battery back really helps, and so does the shorter chassis.
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Old 12-14-2016, 11:02 PM   #881
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Ok, fair enough. Eventually I will upgrade to the full 3.0 truck. But first I'm picking up the new 2wd 3.0 SCT first. I race 2wd class alot more than I do 4wd. But for argument's sake, in general for someone running ANY of the versions of the SCTE trucks with the motor in line with the chassis, which way do you go with center diff viscosity for added steering response? Thicker or thinner fluid? I noticed that with the angled motor setup, the center diff is using a thicker 7k fluid. Just trying to figure out which way to go and under what conditions?
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Old 12-15-2016, 01:30 AM   #882
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There are way to many variables to nail that specific of an answer down for you.
It would depend on your surface more than anything, and personally I wouldn't really rely on the center diff for "steering response"
The center diff just supplies the the power to the front and rear diffs, which will effect your steering a lot more than the center ever would.
Typically for rough or loose tracks you're going to want a thinner diff fluid such as 5K.
If you're running on high traction tracks you're going to like a thicker fluid like the 7K for a more even 4x4 power distribution, IE more power to the rear.
While you could argue the thicker oil will give you more steering in the sense that it will allow you to whip the rear around on power, it can also just as easily make you're truck undriveable due to loosing stability coming on power to early on exit and breaking traction to quickly. At least that is my experience.
The way I understand the motor angled adjustment on the 3.0 is that it will supply more of a linear power band to the front and back rather than an exponential increase that an oil weight change alone would do. More of a constant if you will.
I am not sure that I am explaining it in a manner that makes sense, but that is what I took away from the understanding of what is happening by Losi stating "more 4wd feel"
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Old 12-15-2016, 06:33 AM   #883
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Originally Posted by Jack Bonhomme View Post
But I'm still looking for tighter steering radius on indoor medium to high traction tracks. I'm currently running a 5-5-3 diff setup. Obviously I don't have the ability to angle my motor with the old chassis layout. Should I increase my center diff fluid to 7k, or decrease it to 3k in order to try and get a smaller turning radius? I believe I'm looking for more on-throttle steering response. It's pushing wide, seems the front end isn't pulling it around hard enough. To clarify, this is AFTER I've sufficiently slowed down for the corner, so I'm not coming in TOO hot.
You need to exhaust the weight transfer tuning options before going to power transfer, which changing diff oil does. In higher traction, you need to tighten up the car all round by (In order):

Limit front droop (its a very powerful setting often overlooked in offroad)
More anti-squat in rear or harder rear springs
Heavier rear sway bar
less toe out or more neutral toe

Then you'll try to fix any power transfer problems with diff oil. In what you described it will be going up in center diff oil, but you will sacrifice some off power steering and truck may also not handle so well, but will allow the front to pull harder outta corners
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:31 AM   #884
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My truck this past weekend was running flawlessly. Lots of steering, fwd traction and side traction. I used 9* kickup, 15* aluminium casters, +1* front toe out, -3mm chassis, +.5* anti-squat, +.5* rear toe in, 0* rear camber, -1* front camber, long ackerman plate, 10-10-5 diff oils, 32.5 and 30 shock oils with stock springs, no front sway bar and the thinnest of the thick sway bar kit in the back (don't know the actual diameter). I run a maclan 4150Kv motor to a 15/39 gearing (10.16 FDR). I do run a 2.0 but a 3.0 might handle the same or better.... BTW, it was a high grip indoor dirt.
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Old 12-15-2016, 07:46 AM   #885
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Thanks for the input. I just wanted the general diff question answered. I figured the answer would benefit everyone, regardless of which version of the truck we're driving. Otherwise, I would've simply asked the question in a PM. I can clearly see on the track how the new 3.0 truck is driving much better than previous versions. I can't match the cornering ability of anyone driving one with my current truck. So I'm just looking for a few "band-aid" remedies to get me by until I ultimately upgrade to the SCTE 3.0. In truth, I was all set to order the new truck last month, but then TLR announced the release of a new 22SCT 3.0 and I scrapped that plan in order to get that truck first! Hopefully I'll still be able to get the SCTE 3.0 sometime later in 2017. But until then, I'll just have to get by with my old truck.
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