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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

K.King
Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 05-09-2016, 11:57 AM   #2791
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Frank

I saw on your laydown setup you raised the front hubs 1mm on the front (in combo with the hrc front block). Was that just to match the roll center change to rear? What will raising the front hubs do to the handling of the car?
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Old 05-09-2016, 12:07 PM   #2792
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Frank

I saw on your laydown setup you raised the front hubs 1mm on the front (in combo with the hrc front block). Was that just to match the roll center change to rear? What will raising the front hubs do to the handling of the car?
Yes, the HRC is +2mm, and the hub is +1mm, so basically +3mm total. With the rear hubs raising the axle 3mm, they are basically even.

When you get too far into the travel in the front at 21mm of ride height, the front end won't roll consistently and predictably. By "fixing" the roll center to be correct for 21mm of ride height, the balance of front steering is much better, and more consistent.
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:53 PM   #2793
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After driving the laydown on my home track(medium to high bite clay) my opinion is that the laydown is better, carries more corner speed because it wont traction roll. Corner speed is king and the laydown conversion can be pushed harder without the rolling. If your a club racer you want it in your arsenal
If you are traction rolling then you race on a decidedly high traction surface.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:14 AM   #2794
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If you are traction rolling then you race on a decidedly high traction surface.
That is a great debate I have wondered what the general concensus is on bite? I have always been of the opinion that, if you can run gold or clay tires then you have really good traction.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:55 AM   #2795
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Quick question. Are those PL or Shu front tires on that buggy? And if they're Shu, how did you get them mounted so clean on TLR wheel?
Those are Schumacher Low Profile Cut Stagger Ribs. You just have to cut the inner rib from the wheel; as turf tires are narrow. I've run the Pro-Lines too they are a little tougher to stretch on but fit the same way; just have to cut that inner rib from the wheel. Cutting the rib off is super easy to do using curved lexan scissors.
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:15 AM   #2796
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If I'm running on a very high bite indoor clay track 17.5 22 3.0 what is the lowest ride height I can run without messing up the roll centers on the car?
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Old 05-10-2016, 09:22 AM   #2797
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As far as "do you really need the conversion?" With some research and effort you can make this thing awesome on carpet and turf. Like Frank mentioned; trends and market changes occur quickly and artificial surfaces started to pop up especially after the worlds. So I think it makes business sense not to dive headfirst into a market (artificial surface) that is relatively unstable and trying to find where it sits in the food chain of RC track surfaces. Front wings are an acceptable risk as far as trends; Kit R&D, marketing, manufacturing and all the logistics... not so much. These guys, (Horizon) work really hard making us bad a$$ machines to buy, build and race.
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Old 05-10-2016, 11:21 AM   #2798
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If I'm running on a very high bite indoor clay track 17.5 22 3.0 what is the lowest ride height I can run without messing up the roll centers on the car?
Lay down or standard setup?
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:00 PM   #2799
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Frank stand up trans sorry I forgot the most important think 😎
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:21 PM   #2800
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Frank stand up trans sorry I forgot the most important think 😎
22-24mm is the range I'd try to stay in. 21-23mm with HRC front and rear
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Old 05-10-2016, 01:46 PM   #2801
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22-24mm is the range I'd try to stay in. 21-23mm with HRC front and rear
Yeah, I run HRC on carpet, front and rear (-2 degree toe block on rear as well). I find right at 21 mm is the minimum that can be run. Any lower and I would get all out of shape landing from a jump, often causing me to tumble.

What ride heights are people going to with the laydown kit?

Also, am I reading right that some of you are running the laydown on indoor clay? My only reservation to getting the laydown kit is that when I go out of town and run on clay (only a few times a year), I don't want to change the chassis back over to the stock. Should I just go laydown and run it everywhere? I'm mostly thinking about Speed RC (in NC) and Beach RC (in SC).
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Old 05-10-2016, 03:03 PM   #2802
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Yeah, I run HRC on carpet, front and rear (-2 degree toe block on rear as well). I find right at 21 mm is the minimum that can be run. Any lower and I would get all out of shape landing from a jump, often causing me to tumble.

What ride heights are people going to with the laydown kit?

Also, am I reading right that some of you are running the laydown on indoor clay? My only reservation to getting the laydown kit is that when I go out of town and run on clay (only a few times a year), I don't want to change the chassis back over to the stock. Should I just go laydown and run it everywhere? I'm mostly thinking about Speed RC (in NC) and Beach RC (in SC).
On the laydown kit, you can run lower. We ran 17mm on smooth/indoor astro during testing. On dirt, I am running 21-21mm.

Yes, I am running lay down on indoor clay in stock, but I'll run it in mod on high bite indoor clay.
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:15 PM   #2803
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That is a great debate I have wondered what the general concensus is on bite? I have always been of the opinion that, if you can run gold or clay tires then you have really good traction.
We run Clay compounds at our track but it's medium bite. When get wheelspin and sliding. Traction additives are necessary and if the tires aren't broken in, the car can be pretty difficult to drive.
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:36 PM   #2804
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We run Clay compounds at our track but it's medium bite. When get wheelspin and sliding. Traction additives are necessary and if the tires aren't broken in, the car can be pretty difficult to drive.
That sounds like every clay track
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:03 PM   #2805
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That sounds like every clay track
It's not actually Clay, most Midwest tracks are Triple sifted topsoil. It's been changing the past few years. It (traction additive)used to be unnecessary, then it provided a couple of 10th's.

It was super high grip when it was in the small room (you raced here back then, at the Spektrum race). Slicks, wheelies, it was like running on modeling clay.

Last edited by Davidka; 05-11-2016 at 11:23 AM.
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