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Old 08-23-2016, 10:37 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 04-12-2016, 09:12 AM   #2596
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TLR driver Ellis, did this in Europe not long ago...why would he do this at a big race if it were so bad? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to learn.
To experiment with the configuration and see what difference it made, probably. I don't think anyone said it was bad, just pointed out some the shortcomings, based on the available parts.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:16 AM   #2597
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To experiment with the configuration and see what difference it made, probably. I don't think anyone said it was bad, just pointed out some the shortcomings, based on the available parts.
I don't think he would experiment at a huge race like that, unless in practice but it appears he ran it that way in the race...

and that statement was in response to Frank, he said that it would require too much spacing of the rear shock causing breakages, and unwanted flex, that it would not be worth it. hence bad.

and im wondering if it's so bad why did a TLR driver do it. and the spacing in the picture, with a titanium screw doesn't seem so bad. i also could run a carbon fiber cross brace as well, which may combat the added flex.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:36 AM   #2598
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Im just guessing here but....I would bet that the team driver crashes a lot less than you might. These shortcomings may be doable but when you wreck all that force is transferred back into broken parts.
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:41 AM   #2599
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and im wondering if it's so bad why did a TLR driver do it.
I think that question is better suited for the person who did this than asking Frank as he might not know.

Nobody is going to stop you from trying it. Just be aware that there might be consequences to trying it.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:00 AM   #2600
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Im just guessing here but....I would bet that the team driver crashes a lot less than you might. These shortcomings may be doable but when you wreck all that force is transferred back into broken parts.
Frank made it sound like there would be unwanted flex under normal driving, maybe changing handling characteristics in a bad way? potential for easier breakage is expected. but if it can be done properly without compromising too much i think its worth it, im just wondering the discrepancy here.

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I think that question is better suited for the person who did this than asking Frank as he might not know.

Nobody is going to stop you from trying it. Just be aware that there might be consequences to trying it.
yeah it would, if i could get a hold of him...

but i assume Frank has enough knowledge on it and connection to the team, hes a smart guy and it's practically his car so...
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:36 AM   #2601
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I don't think he would experiment at a huge race like that, unless in practice but it appears he ran it that way in the race...
Sure he would, team drivers do stuff like that all the time. I'm sure he tested enough to know it wouldn't hurt performance, and he's got access to.lots of things we probably don't (shock tower with stiffer material?).
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:39 AM   #2602
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Originally Posted by lyons238 View Post
TLR driver Ellis, did this in Europe not long ago...why would he do this at a big race if it were so bad? I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to learn. I know you know a lot more about engineering and geometry than I do, but I'm just wondering why a team driver would do this, and then you say this...

I would imagine a 30mm Ti screw with a few washer/plastic spacer would work fine, with minimal breakage?

Furthermore, I imagine I could actually use a piece of 4-5mm thick carbon fiber as part of the shock spacer and run it across each shock and act as a brace, this may help reduce the concerns you're talking about.

This doesn't seem that bad as far as spacing etc..

What you can't see in the photo is that Ellis removed a lot of material from the front of his rear arms to move the shock mounting position back, also weakening the arm.

My opinion doesn't change. I'll always provide accurate and honest feedback, and it kind of stinks to be challenged on every post I make. Makes me not want to come in here and post really...
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:48 AM   #2603
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Originally Posted by Frank Root View Post
What you can't see in the photo is that Ellis removed a lot of material from the front of his rear arms to move the shock mounting position back, also weakening the arm.

My opinion doesn't change. I'll always provide accurate and honest feedback, and it kind of stinks to be challenged on every post I make. Makes me not want to come in here and post really...
that makes more sense, now. im not challenging you, i just didnt understand the full story.

i respect and appreciate your opinion. thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 04-12-2016, 11:39 AM   #2604
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Originally Posted by Frank Root View Post
What you can't see in the photo is that Ellis removed a lot of material from the front of his rear arms to move the shock mounting position back, also weakening the arm.

My opinion doesn't change. I'll always provide accurate and honest feedback, and it kind of stinks to be challenged on every post I make. Makes me not want to come in here and post really...
Frank, I really hope you don't truly feel this way. You are what makes this site and TLR great above all others. People see things the pros do and think it is acceptable, but when in fact most of these setups are proto-types and being tested and though they are used in actual racing does not mean it is practical.

I know back in the 80s and still today people make mods and try different things, some work some don't, and we didn't have qualified engineers telling us that the things we did would weaken or compromise our cars. We just did it in our garage.

As the photo also shows the laydown tranny proto-type, which has now come full circle but the forward shocks not so much. Not everything you see is good and recommended.

So from myself and I am sure others thank you for all your knowledge and helpful insights.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:23 PM   #2605
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That wing wrap is sick.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:45 PM   #2606
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That wing wrap is sick.
+1
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:47 PM   #2607
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+1
Is that an upgrade wrap?

How sticky is it...because after two heats and I ruin the wing, can I peel and stick it on my next one? LOL
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Old 04-13-2016, 02:01 AM   #2608
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I think a true tell tale sign if the forward mounted shocks is a good idea and worked is knowing if Ellis TQd and won the big race. If yes, then hack away at the arms at will. :-)
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:42 AM   #2609
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Been a while since I last posted but absolutely love this car!! Frank any new base setups that u guys are using? Last I remember everyone was using the Dustin Evans setup. Read the last few pages and have to say I think we love the fact that your in here giving us valuable info on this car.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:05 AM   #2610
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What gearing for a 13.5?

Thanks!
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