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Old 08-23-2016, 10:37 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

K.King
Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 03-28-2016, 11:53 AM   #2491
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I would run a 78/28 or 78/29. Then you will be using the new slipper pads and wont have to change spur gears for different winds.
The downers are it moves the motor so far forward and winds up being a heavier gear combo to spin. Though you may want the weight forward depending on your track surface. Lots of combos will get you the same effective ratio.
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Old 03-28-2016, 01:29 PM   #2492
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I'd wager spur gears differ in weight less than pinions, and they do spin at a reduced speed.
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:07 PM   #2493
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More front droop to prevent inside rear tire lifting? I'm at the kit setup 1 mm limiters in the front, none in the rear.

So that will prevent the front from rolling as far, keeping the back end down?
It allows the rear to roll more evenly with the front, keeping the car from going over the outside front as much which will keep the inside rear down more.
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:38 PM   #2494
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It allows the rear to roll more evenly with the front, keeping the car from going over the outside front as much which will keep the inside rear down more.
Will adding the front droop have any negative effects?
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:45 PM   #2495
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How about when used on the 22-4, which is what I'm doing with it?
to the rear.
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:35 PM   #2496
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Will adding the front droop have any negative effects?
Could increase forward bite and slightly decrease on-power steering by allowing more rearward weight transfer. Difference will probably be tiny.
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Old 03-28-2016, 04:18 PM   #2497
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Could increase forward bite and slightly decrease on-power steering by allowing more rearward weight transfer. Difference will probably be tiny.
What he said
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Old 03-28-2016, 08:28 PM   #2498
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It allows the rear to roll more evenly with the front, keeping the car from going over the outside front as much which will keep the inside rear down more.
Okay, I started getting confused earlier between more droop and more limiters. I'm totally straight now. So the problem is that the rear is rolling more than the front? Would decreasing rear droop (by adding limiters in the shocks) accomplish the same thing. I am on super high-bite carpet and have excess traction.

Side note: why don't 1/10 scale kits have droop screws like 1/8 scale and even touring cars?

Thanks as always, Frank.
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Old 03-29-2016, 05:41 AM   #2499
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Side note: why don't 1/10 scale kits have droop screws like 1/8 scale and even touring cars?
22 4.0 wish list item! I recall Casper in the 2.0 thread saying he had no good answer to why this was lol.

It might add some weight to the car, but currently droop is a set-it-and-forget-it setting for me because I can't easily switch back and forth. It would be awesome to have though; use it all the time as a tuning aid on my SCTE.
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Old 03-29-2016, 07:18 AM   #2500
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22 4.0 wish list item! I recall Casper in the 2.0 thread saying he had no good answer to why this was lol.
.
Might have to do with roll center positions of the hinge pins. To allow for droop screws, some space must be made for a chassis tab and if you look at most 2wd buggies, there isn't any there because of the low position of the out-drives. This space is easier to make on a 1/8th scale, where the diff can be smaller relative to the size of everything else.

With the old XXX shocks, I used plastic washers with a small section cut out so that I could remove the cartridge and clip/remove spacers to make the adjustment. Was faster than disassembling everything.
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Old 03-29-2016, 09:42 AM   #2501
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Originally Posted by Callaway View Post
Okay, I started getting confused earlier between more droop and more limiters. I'm totally straight now. So the problem is that the rear is rolling more than the front? Would decreasing rear droop (by adding limiters in the shocks) accomplish the same thing. I am on super high-bite carpet and have excess traction.

Side note: why don't 1/10 scale kits have droop screws like 1/8 scale and even touring cars?

Thanks as always, Frank.
Because when you limit droop, you compromise landing and bump handling.

The rear isn't rolling more. The weight is trying to roll over the outside front, and it is coming from the inside front and inside rear. When the inside front stops rolling because it runs out of [down] travel, then the only way to roll over the outside front is the inside rear... which helps lift that tire.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:23 PM   #2502
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Seems as though the easiest way to play with droop with the lack of droop screws is to add the limiters to limit the droop then if more droop is needed, unscrew the shock ends up to a couple/few turns.

I'd like to see droop screws on 1/10 buggies too and also don't know why they don't exist.
As mentioned, 1/10 touring cars have em.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:59 PM   #2503
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Originally Posted by F N CUDA View Post
Seems as though the easiest way to play with droop with the lack of droop screws is to add the limiters to limit the droop then if more droop is needed, unscrew the shock ends up to a couple/few turns.

I'd like to see droop screws on 1/10 buggies too and also don't know why they don't exist.
As mentioned, 1/10 touring cars have em.
From my experience running the DEX210, sedan style droop screws tend to pack with dirt at the front arms and fouls the suspension movement. Not so much at the rear. You have to land cleanly off jumps which obviously I'm not doing That may be a limiting factor to the sedan style droop screws on dirt tracks.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:18 PM   #2504
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Because when you limit droop, you compromise landing and bump handling.

The rear isn't rolling more. The weight is trying to roll over the outside front, and it is coming from the inside front and inside rear. When the inside front stops rolling because it runs out of [down] travel, then the only way to roll over the outside front is the inside rear... which helps lift that tire.
Frank, thank you so much for taking the time to explain that! I will give it a shot. This seems like one of those things where the answer is counter-intuitive to someone (like me) still learning this stuff.

Would doing other things to combat roll be effective as well? As we have way too much traction, I don't need weight transfer to get bite on my outside corner. So perhaps lowering the inside of the front camber links?

I think I also need to smooth my driving style through the sharp corners. I seem to be doing more of a hard braking, turn, punch it out type of driving. It's the way I drive a rear motor on a really loose surface... which is exactly the opposite of my setup and surface now.
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Old 03-29-2016, 08:25 PM   #2505
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Default TLR 22 3.0 Chassis

Do you know if everything from the 2.0 will bolt onto the 3.0 chassis? I'm fairly certain the front bulkheads are the same, just not sure about the rear.
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