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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 01-04-2016, 06:20 PM   #1396
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Those are really the things you want to change though, the easiest to tune with. Any reason why you don't want to change those things?
Because I already have changed these and I'm still looking to get a little more haha. I still feel like a could get a bit more steering before the front end over drives the rear.
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Old 01-04-2016, 07:01 PM   #1397
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Because I already have changed these and I'm still looking to get a little more haha. I still feel like a could get a bit more steering before the front end over drives the rear.
0 degree caster blocks would be something to try. Less toe in the rear. Move the rear hubs back. Raise the spindles.

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Old 01-04-2016, 09:16 PM   #1398
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I put the LOSA2954 gear diff in my 3.0 tonight and there was definitely some binding until I loosened the lower of the two screws that hold the transmission case together. I have a feeling there might still be a little rub but can't tell for sure. Frank can you confirm whether the LOSA2954 should fit into the transmission case for the 3.0?
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:22 PM   #1399
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SETUP SHEET PLEASE
Just saw this. I will try to get it done tomorrow.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:27 PM   #1400
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I put the LOSA2954 gear diff in my 3.0 tonight and there was definitely some binding until I loosened the lower of the two screws that hold the transmission case together. I have a feeling there might still be a little rub but can't tell for sure. Frank can you confirm whether the LOSA2954 should fit into the transmission case for the 3.0?
I've been running the gear diff since I got the car a few weeks ago, works fine.
Just watch the depth of the bones in the outdrives, I'm running the axle spacers to ensure they reach deep enough.
Mine made some noise without the spacers and I didn't want to damage anything.
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Old 01-04-2016, 10:00 PM   #1401
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The binding I felt was with the tranny in my hand just spinning the outdrive. Nothing to do with the driveshaft.
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Old 01-05-2016, 03:48 AM   #1402
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Just saw this. I will try to get it done tomorrow.
Much appreciated
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:35 AM   #1403
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just want to confirm that the schelle or avid slippers are a direct fit. Decided to get another 3.0 for stock and want to install slipper eliminator
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:41 AM   #1404
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Originally Posted by tilimil View Post
I put the LOSA2954 gear diff in my 3.0 tonight and there was definitely some binding until I loosened the lower of the two screws that hold the transmission case together. I have a feeling there might still be a little rub but can't tell for sure. Frank can you confirm whether the LOSA2954 should fit into the transmission case for the 3.0?
I tried the LOSA2954 gear diff in the 3.0 three-gear case and I am having the same problem. I was able to eliminate the rubbing by putting some shims over the outdrive but the additional space taken up by the shims was making the case fit too tightly on the diff assembly. I could tell it was restricting the motion of the bearings and assembly.
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Old 01-05-2016, 05:42 AM   #1405
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just want to confirm that the schelle or avid slippers are a direct fit. Decided to get another 3.0 for stock and want to install slipper eliminator
Confirmed. I use one on mine.
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:10 AM   #1406
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just want to confirm that the schelle or avid slippers are a direct fit. Decided to get another 3.0 for stock and want to install slipper eliminator
The Exotek one is. I was running it Saturday
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Old 01-05-2016, 06:15 AM   #1407
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just want to confirm that the schelle or avid slippers are a direct fit. Decided to get another 3.0 for stock and want to install slipper eliminator
Get the Exotek and the Exotek spur. That is a clean combo and super light.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:08 AM   #1408
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For those interested, I have another follow up post to my initial build post and my first track test post.

On Sunday I had my first race day with the car. Overall I would consider it a very successful day. For myself, I define success as making the A Main and not finishing dead last. Mod buggy is very competitive where I race, and even though this past Sunday was a light turnout, we still had enough to go to a C Main. My first qual was good enough to put me in the A-Main, which I needed because my second qual was somewhat of a disaster. Remember the drive pin I had fall out in my initial track test post? Well, the other drive pin decided to work its way out during the 2nd qual (despite building it with thread lock on the set screw). Again, this isn't something I had to worry about for the last three years I had a Durango so I find it pretty frustrating. I'll just keep an eye on them until I get my shrink tube in the mail to put over the CVD joint to keep it from happening again. Anyway, with that issue temporarily sorted out, I started 7th in the A and finnished 6th. I consider that a very good result for myself.

Going back to my discussion of pistons in my initial build post, for anyone who is interested, I calculated the motion ratios of the front and rear shocks and then found the ratio of the front motion ratio (MRF) to the rear motion ratio (MRR). That ratio comes out to about .74. What does this mean? It means if you compress the front and rear suspension the same amount, for every inch of piston travel in the rear shocks, the front piston will only travel about 3/4". Another way to look at it is when you're driving around the track, your front piston will be moving at about 74% of the speed of your rear pistons. Remember I said velocity affects damping force? Now we know that whatever dampening we have in the rear, we want about 74% of that up front to have balance. How do I practically apply this knowledge? I make the ratio of front pistol hole area to rear piston hole area match the ratio of the MRF:MRR. A=(piston hole diameter/2)^2 * 3.14 * (# of piston holes). I keep the # of piston holes the same front to back so I ignore that part of the equation. The 1.5mm diameter holes on the front pistons have an area of ~1.77mm^2 per hole. The 1.6mm diameter holes on the rear pistons have an area of ~2.01mm^2 per hole. So the kit setup gives a piston ratio of about .88 which is too high for us. I have this drill set for drilling pistons. Obviously I can't make the front 1.5mm pistons smaller, but I can drill out the rears to 1.7mm, which have an area of about 2.27mm^2. This gets our ratio to about .78 which is close enough that you won't notice the difference compared to a perfectly matched set of pistons. From this point I'll fill the shocks with oil, press the chassis down in the middle and watch it spring back up to ride height. I'm looking for the front and rear to rise back up at the same rate. If one end rises faster than the other, I'll adjust oils until they match. Typically I end up with the same oil front and rear, or (and this will sound strange) a lighter oil up front.

Why do I do all this? Because I have yet to find a way of tuning my shocks that handles, jumps, and lands better than this, and it always works the first time regardless of what car I try it on. It's a little more work up front, but it takes the guesswork out of finding a shock setup. To give credit where credit is due, I did not come up with this method on my own. It is based off of posts by FredSwain and 30Tooth.

I've never had a car that I can adjust front kick up on before. Tomorrow I'll be testing out the 20 kick option to see what that gets me. This would be a situation where having adjustable caster inserts would provide a benefit. By changing the kick angle, I'm also reducing caster. Ideally I'd like to test the effect of reducing kick without changing caster. Regardless, it's something new to try and I'm excited to give it a shot. Also, changing the front kick up changes the effective spring rate of the front, so I adjusted the front springs to make up for the effective increase in stiffness from reducing kick.

If you can't tell at this point, I really like tinkering and this car has given me new things to tinker with.
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:21 AM   #1409
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For those interested, I have another follow up post to my initial build post and my first track test post.

On Sunday I had my first race day with the car. Overall I would consider it a very successful day. For myself, I define success as making the A Main and not finishing dead last. Mod buggy is very competitive where I race, and even though this past Sunday was a light turnout, we still had enough to go to a C Main. My first qual was good enough to put me in the A-Main, which I needed because my second qual was somewhat of a disaster. Remember the drive pin I had fall out in my initial track test post? Well, the other drive pin decided to work its way out during the 2nd qual (despite building it with thread lock on the set screw). Again, this isn't something I had to worry about for the last three years I had a Durango so I find it pretty frustrating. I'll just keep an eye on them until I get my shrink tube in the mail to put over the CVD joint to keep it from happening again. Anyway, with that issue temporarily sorted out, I started 7th in the A and finnished 6th. I consider that a very good result for myself.

Going back to my discussion of pistons in my initial build post, for anyone who is interested, I calculated the motion ratios of the front and rear shocks and then found the ratio of the front motion ratio (MRF) to the rear motion ratio (MRR). That ratio comes out to about .74. What does this mean? It means if you compress the front and rear suspension the same amount, for every inch of piston travel in the rear shocks, the front piston will only travel about 3/4". Another way to look at it is when you're driving around the track, your front piston will be moving at about 74% of the speed of your rear pistons. Remember I said velocity affects damping force? Now we know that whatever dampening we have in the rear, we want about 74% of that up front to have balance. How do I practically apply this knowledge? I make the ratio of front pistol hole area to rear piston hole area match the ratio of the MRF:MRR. A=(piston hole diameter/2)^2 * 3.14 * (# of piston holes). I keep the # of piston holes the same front to back so I ignore that part of the equation. The 1.5mm diameter holes on the front pistons have an area of ~1.77mm^2 per hole. The 1.6mm diameter holes on the rear pistons have an area of ~2.01mm^2 per hole. So the kit setup gives a piston ratio of about .88 which is too high for us. I have this drill set for drilling pistons. Obviously I can't make the front 1.5mm pistons smaller, but I can drill out the rears to 1.7mm, which have an area of about 2.27mm^2. This gets our ratio to about .78 which is close enough that you won't notice the difference compared to a perfectly matched set of pistons. From this point I'll fill the shocks with oil, press the chassis down in the middle and watch it spring back up to ride height. I'm looking for the front and rear to rise back up at the same rate. If one end rises faster than the other, I'll adjust oils until they match. Typically I end up with the same oil front and rear, or (and this will sound strange) a lighter oil up front.

Why do I do all this? Because I have yet to find a way of tuning my shocks that handles, jumps, and lands better than this, and it always works the first time regardless of what car I try it on. It's a little more work up front, but it takes the guesswork out of finding a shock setup. To give credit where credit is due, I did not come up with this method on my own. It is based off of posts by FredSwain and 30Tooth.

I've never had a car that I can adjust front kick up on before. Tomorrow I'll be testing out the 20 kick option to see what that gets me. This would be a situation where having adjustable caster inserts would provide a benefit. By changing the kick angle, I'm also reducing caster. Ideally I'd like to test the effect of reducing kick without changing caster. Regardless, it's something new to try and I'm excited to give it a shot. Also, changing the front kick up changes the effective spring rate of the front, so I adjusted the front springs to make up for the effective increase in stiffness from reducing kick.

If you can't tell at this point, I really like tinkering and this car has given me new things to tinker with.
How do you calculate the amount of spring rate change required for a change in front kick up?
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Old 01-05-2016, 08:32 AM   #1410
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Nick, clean the set screw with motor spray and wipe it with a rag. Lots of brown oil comes off. Then spray the hole. Wait till it dries then loctite it. I had same thing happen to me when I first ran the sct.
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