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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Old 12-28-2015, 10:18 AM   #1231
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agree on this post, some say it add, some say it takes away. just need a clarification.
Everyone's driving style is a little different. So what it does for you may not be what it does for someone else. So give it a try with and without the spacer installed and see how it feels.
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Old 12-28-2015, 10:35 AM   #1232
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Is it possible to fit a standard regular lipo in a 22 3.0 MM?
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Old 12-28-2015, 10:41 AM   #1233
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Is it possible to fit a standard regular lipo in a 22 3.0 MM?
Thanks
No, it'll take saddles/square or short, but not a full length stick pack.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:09 AM   #1234
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No, it'll take saddles/square or short, but not a full length stick pack.
What about 22 2.0 ? Does standard lipo fit in rm or mm ?

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Old 12-28-2015, 11:13 AM   #1235
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What about 22 2.0 ? Does standard lipo fit in rm or mm ?
The 2.0 will accept a standard stick lipo in RM configuration only. In MM there is not enough length on the chassis to accept one so it's short/saddle/square only, like the 3.0.

Are you concerned about using batteries you have already? Batteries are pretty inexpensive these days, getting a couple of short lipos is worthwhile. They make the car lighter and better on the track.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:19 AM   #1236
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The 2.0 will accept a standard stick lipo in RM configuration only. In MM there is not enough length on the chassis to accept one so it's short/saddle/square only, like the 3.0.

Are you concerned about using batteries you have already? Batteries are pretty inexpensive these days, getting a couple of short lipos is worthwhile. They make the car lighter and better on the track.
Yes I have lot of standard lipos and my reading is that shorty are more expensive that standard lipos.

There is not enough space behind the servo? My plan was to put the esc on top of the battery with an exotek mount.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:27 AM   #1237
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Yes I have lot of standard lipos and my reading is that shorty are more expensive that standard lipos.

There is not enough space behind the servo? My plan was to put the esc on top of the battery with an exotek mount.
Even with the esc mounted on a shelf still not enough room in a 2.0 in mid motor for a full size shorty. Only in RM. like the previous post stated there are plenty of good shorty lipos relatively inexpensive. I understand some people have an abundance of stick lipos still but really any of the competitive 2wd buggy brands a full size stick won't fit.
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Those are just a few brands off the top of my head to check out. You can find shorties for 30-40 bucks
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:30 AM   #1238
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Yes I have lot of standard lipos and my reading is that shorty are more expensive that standard lipos.

There is not enough space behind the servo? My plan was to put the esc on top of the battery with an exotek mount.
I'm not going to say it's impossible but it's really not recommended. The new car was designed and balanced around the weight of a short pack. You'll be spending over $300 on a new kit and the handling will be compromised over a $40 short lipo (remember, you can barely get a good set of tires for $40)

Sell a couple of your standard lipos to pay for a decent short lipo. and you'll be a happy camper.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:33 AM   #1239
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Originally Posted by skoalisbad4me View Post
Even with the esc mounted on a shelf still not enough room in a 2.0 in mid motor for a full size shorty. Only in RM. like the previous post stated there are plenty of good shorty lipos relatively inexpensive. I understand some people have an abundance of stick lipos still but really any of the competitive 2wd buggy brands a full size stick won't fit.
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Turnigy
SMC
Those are just a few brands off the top of my head to check out. You can find shorties for 30-40 bucks
Agree with the approach ! I will buy shorty.

Another question: is there a gear diff available for 3.0 (like on 2.0)

I have really enjoyed gear diff which requires very little maintenance (despite lower performance / grip compared to ball diff).
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:42 AM   #1240
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Agree with the approach ! I will buy shorty.

Another question: is there a gear diff available for 3.0 (like on 2.0)

I have really enjoyed gear diff which requires very little maintenance (despite lower performance / grip compared to ball diff).
Tranny didn't change between the 2 generations. 2.0 gear diff will drop right in.
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Old 12-28-2015, 11:55 AM   #1241
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I challange the pros to compose a book that explains what all the adjustments are on rc cars, what does toe changes do? Camber, caster, roll center, Ackerman, shock rebound, spring rates, chassis flex, anti squat, droop, why do we want the motor as close to the rear as possible with a mid motor car? shareing this information can only HELP the hobby and make it easier for people to understand what is going on with there cars. I know there is the setup book that you get with HUDY setup stations but I think it should be taken to the next level....compose the book....let the most unlikely person to understand it read it, then make changes to the book until said person does understand....I know I would buy such a book.....it would be one of the most valuable tools in my tool bag.....if a book such as this exists great! I wish I had one....if not....come on PROS get on it......no offence intended with this post! Just my thoughts!
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Old 12-28-2015, 12:14 PM   #1242
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Originally Posted by Speedychris22 View Post
agree on this post, some say it add, some say it takes away. just need a clarification.
Adding the axle spacer adds more bone lock on throttle, which will make the car have more straight-line forward traction. It will often have the car "release" harder when getting out of the throttle which can make it feel like it has less side bite depending on how you drive with the throttle. I prefer not to run it on most indoor clay tracks because I put the trigger hard and often...lol...
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Old 12-28-2015, 12:41 PM   #1243
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I finally got around to finishing up my build. Here are some thoughts purely from the standpoint of the build and the features the car has compared to the dex210 I've ran for the last 3 years:

Things I like:
-Transverse shorty battery layout. This is not an option on the 210 so I custom machined my own chassis for the 210 to do it. This battery layout is superior on dirt when running mid motor.

-The stock 78t spur helps get the motor further towards the back of the car compared to the typical 87t spur I'm used to seeing come with a kit (although I'll probably go even smaller on the spur to get the motor even further back)

-Stock 3 gear transmission. This keeps the car flatter and gives a more consistent and predictable driving feel when going from on to off power and vice versa.

-Long front arms. Every buggy based on the RC10 geometry (lots of them out there) have equal length arms front and rear. With the short VLA options, the 22 is now the same way. I personally think this is more of a design flaw, as has been pointed out by FredSwain. Because of the front kickup on a car, the front arms will experience more angular deflection than the rear arms given the same vertical wheel travel. This affects the roll center characteristics as the front RC will change faster than the rear RC for the same wheel travel. Cars with longer front arms fix this imbalance in RC change.

-Shocks. As others have said, they're pretty good, although I don't like everything about them. I'll get to that in the "Things I Don't Like" list.

-61mm wheel available. I've been dying to try these new style wheels since they came out, but they are completely unsupported on the 210.

-Pre-Cut body. I love this.

Things I don't like:
-No droop screws. The dex210 has external droop screws that are a huge convenience for setting up droop on the car. You don't have to tear the entire shock apart to change droop. Speaking of tearing the shocks apart...

-E-Clips. It's 2015. E-Clips must go. I don't think I can put into words how much I despise E-Clips. I mean, TLR eliminated E-Clips everywhere else on the car, why did they stop at the shocks? Was it an oversight? Laziness? I don't know. But building these shocks (and re-building as well) was a total pain in the ass because of these E-Clips. In typical E-Clip fashion, one shot off while I was trying to put it on and I had to spend about 5 minutes searching my floor before I found it. Why am I so riled up about this? Because on the Durango shocks I got used to for the past three years there are no E-Clips on the shock shaft. There is a washer that supports the piston from below and a button head screw that holds the piston in place from the top as shown below:


This is a superior design for two reason. 1) no frustrating E-Clips to deal with. 2) When you have to screw the shaft into the rod end, you can use a hex key to screw the shaft into the rod end rather than risk marring the shock shaft with pliers (which I ended up doing because the threads were so tight on the rod end).

-No inserts for steering axle adjustment or caster. Another thing I liked from the 210 that is absent on this car. I could use inserts to go from inline axles to 4mm traling in 1mm incriments. I could also go from 20 to 35 caster in 5 increments with inserts.

-Every pivot point on the suspension is different. Front inner: set screw holding the pins in place from the middle of the bulkhead. Front outer: shoulder screws. Rear inner: hinge pins held in place by the pivot blocks. Rear Outer: threaded hinge pin with nuts on each side. Is a little consistency too much to ask for here? I can't see a benefit other than complexity for the sake of complexity.

-Referencing screws in the assembly drawings by the TLR part number rather than their size. Really just a nit-picky thing that bugged me during the build.

-Why on Earth does the manual show the installation of the front body post when they give you velcro to hold the body in place? I built the car with the front body post, realized the velcro was in the kit, then had to take the front end off the car to remove the front body post. It's extra work that I would have liked to avoided.

Other notes/observations
-Weight. With a standard shorty, full size servo, Hobbywing v2.1 ESC, and 61mm wheels/tires my car weighs in at 1567g. I've seen some people in this thread claim close to/sub 1500g using standard electronics. I personally think they're full of it until they post pictures showing otherwise.

-Weight distribution. The car doesn't have as much rear weight bias as I initially hoped it might. As pictured below with my electronics layout, the car has a 62.9% weight bias. My 210 really felt good when I got it up to about 64% which I achieved with a transverse shorty layout and a 30g brass toe block.



-As others have noted, the front suspension binds a little. I'm not worried about it now as I expect it may free up after some track time.

-It looks like it wouldn't be too hard to make a carbon fiber chassis to bring down the weight.

Reading over what I have written, I sound more critical of the car than what I initially thought I was going to write. However, I am still pleased with the car for one reason: support. The durango had no local parts support, very little aftermarket support, their own silly hex size, and no hexes in the front. I got fed up with race day ending crashes because I broke an obscure part I didn't carry a spare of, and of the huge limitation 14mm hexes and no front hex imposed on wheel/tire choice. It's easy to bum a buddy's set to try before you buy if you have 12mm. I bought this car for the support it has, I just wish some of the design features were as well thought out as the dex210.

I plan on getting the car to the track tomorrow evening with the stock setup. I have no doubt the car will live up to the hype at that point and I'll probably forget about all the other things I don't like.
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Last edited by RC10Nick; 12-28-2015 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 12-28-2015, 12:42 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by Shaun B22 View Post
I challange the pros to compose a book that explains what all the adjustments are on rc cars, what does toe changes do? Camber, caster, roll center, Ackerman, shock rebound, spring rates, chassis flex, anti squat, droop, why do we want the motor as close to the rear as possible with a mid motor car? shareing this information can only HELP the hobby and make it easier for people to understand what is going on with there cars. I know there is the setup book that you get with HUDY setup stations but I think it should be taken to the next level....compose the book....let the most unlikely person to understand it read it, then make changes to the book until said person does understand....I know I would buy such a book.....it would be one of the most valuable tools in my tool bag.....if a book such as this exists great! I wish I had one....if not....come on PROS get on it......no offence intended with this post! Just my thoughts!
A lot of companies have done that, such as the Hudy tuning guide (as you mentioned) and the soon to be released Tekno guide. The issue with writing out a "simplified" version is while you can describe what the car itself will do differently, trying to explain what that translates to on the track is very difficult. There are two reasons for it: Not everyone drives exactly the same, and not every track has the same surface.

The best example I can give for this is tire compound. It's very easy to say a softer compound will give you more grip because literally the tire will have more friction with the ground. However when you bring clay or some blue groove surfaces into the picture, it doesn't work the same way. A super soft tire on a clay track feels loose because the car has so much "compound grip" that the pins/bars may roll over and the car will just slide everywhere. So if you take two guys who just got into the hobby with the same cars but on two different tracks, one may say the setup book is accurate and the other may say it doesn't make any sense.

It sort of works the same way with rollcenters and all of that. Saying a change will make the car roll more doesn't automatically mean the car will have more grip, so someone with limited suspension physics knowledge might have a tough time trying to figure out when they need more roll in their car.

Hopefully this makes sense I really do hope someone takes the time to write out explanations for each change and how they might change the way the car feels on each track, but that might go from being a tuning guide to a tuning dictionary. All of this is the reason so many guys will tell you to just try something out...otherwise you'd spend way too long trying to figure out suspension dynamics on a toy car.
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Old 12-28-2015, 12:43 PM   #1245
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Adding the axle spacer adds more bone lock on throttle, which will make the car have more straight-line forward traction. It will often have the car "release" harder when getting out of the throttle which can make it feel like it has less side bite depending on how you drive with the throttle. I prefer not to run it on most indoor clay tracks because I put the trigger hard and often...lol...
thanks Frank, Also quick question when going from 1- inside shock position on front tower with short vla to 2 middle with short vla what effect will i notice on the car.
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