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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 12-23-2015, 10:34 AM   #1126
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What considered tight or loose

I always ran my diff tight and then talking with an old friend who is a sponsored racer setup my diff to the point where turning just one tire would cause the other tire to spin in the opposite direction before that if I turned one tire by itself it would cause not only spin the opposite tire but would also spin the motor if you turned both wheels by hand in opposite directions the diff still felt smooth
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:44 AM   #1127
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What considered tight or loose

I always ran my diff tight and then talking with an old friend who is a sponsored racer setup my diff to the point where turning just one tire would cause the other tire to spin in the opposite direction before that if I turned one tire by itself it would cause not only spin the opposite tire but would also spin the motor if you turned both wheels by hand in opposite directions the diff still felt smooth
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:58 AM   #1128
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Originally Posted by 4wd Racer View Post
As you said it's hard to look at without being there in person, if you haven't had someone to look at it yet.

One thing came to mind, perhaps if the car was feeling fine before as you guy had freshly built kits that seemed to handle reasonably well. Perhaps since then the diff has loosen up a bit more after being run in some from where it was initially tight (maybe check the setting, and see if it needs to be re-tightened and/or rebuilt if it was ran too loose for long period of time and has become gritty).

It can cause diffing out / inconsistent handling if it has become looser or gritty over time perhaps as you feed power in. Hopefully someone can chime in some other suggestions or ideas to help you guys get back on the right track.
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Did you try sanding down the treads or try slicks. I was always having issues in buggy then i finally sanded some down and all the loose/ not steering issues went away. I was reluctant on taking tread off because i know the track will eventually return to tires with tread.
Hey guys, thanks! Yes, we have sanded down the tires and are pretty well broke in. We have had the cars ready to go for about 2 weeks now. I had not thought about the diff, although, I did tighten them after the first pack as they did need adjusting, they may need it again though, that's a great thing to point out, they may just be just what the problem is! Thanks!
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:13 AM   #1129
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Is there much of a interest for a LCG tranny?
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:03 PM   #1130
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Hey guys, thanks! Yes, we have sanded down the tires and are pretty well broke in. We have had the cars ready to go for about 2 weeks now. I had not thought about the diff, although, I did tighten them after the first pack as they did need adjusting, they may need it again though, that's a great thing to point out, they may just be just what the problem is! Thanks!
Just throwing this out with what I've noticed on the build of this car.
There's probably variance with the tolerance of the plastics, but I had to do some hand fitting to get the binding out of the suspension. I especially had binding around the front caster block, rear hubs, and around the rear suspension block. Some sand paper rubbing will get the tolerances correct. Also, make sure you didn't screw in the shock shaft too hard into the shock end as this tends to bind up the ball. The diff is one thing, but a binding suspension anywhere will make the car perform wacky.
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:20 PM   #1131
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Hey guys, thanks! Yes, we have sanded down the tires and are pretty well broke in. We have had the cars ready to go for about 2 weeks now. I had not thought about the diff, although, I did tighten them after the first pack as they did need adjusting, they may need it again though, that's a great thing to point out, they may just be just what the problem is! Thanks!
One thing that was very off when I read your post is the compounds. The MC rubber and M4 rubber are 2 VERY different types of rubber. If M4 worked for your son, try M4 on your car.
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:29 PM   #1132
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Just throwing this out with what I've noticed on the build of this car.
There's probably variance with the tolerance of the plastics, but I had to do some hand fitting to get the binding out of the suspension. I especially had binding around the front caster block, rear hubs, and around the rear suspension block. Some sand paper rubbing will get the tolerances correct. Also, make sure you didn't screw in the shock shaft too hard into the shock end as this tends to bind up the ball. The diff is one thing, but a binding suspension anywhere will make the car perform wacky.
Yes, this is another thing that we had done with the build as I had read that there is some binding with the new parts (which in my opinion, is very acceptable as molding parts out of plastic and expecting perfection on each one as far as tolerances go is totally understandable, to me, anyway) and we made sure that everything was free and fell under its own weight but it may not be a bad idea to go back and double check to make sure that something weird hasn't happened. Thanks again guys for the input, I just don't think that driving a 2 wheel buggy, that a person should be holding on for dear life when trying to complete a lap. I know it's possible from our first outing. Just as a side note, I DO love this car and have always used TLR from the JRX-Pro til now. I just want to get it competitive as soon as possible and I thank you for the help!
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Old 12-23-2015, 12:50 PM   #1133
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Yes, this is another thing that we had done with the build as I had read that there is some binding with the new parts (which in my opinion, is very acceptable as molding parts out of plastic and expecting perfection on each one as far as tolerances go is totally understandable, to me, anyway) and we made sure that everything was free and fell under its own weight but it may not be a bad idea to go back and double check to make sure that something weird hasn't happened. Thanks again guys for the input, I just don't think that driving a 2 wheel buggy, that a person should be holding on for dear life when trying to complete a lap. I know it's possible from our first outing. Just as a side note, I DO love this car and have always used TLR from the JRX-Pro til now. I just want to get it competitive as soon as possible and I thank you for the help!
When my TLR 22 starts sliding out coming out of a turn it is usually a change in track conditions. My first step is to drop to a softer rear spring. Second is tires. At my track we start the day with Electron M4 then go to a Dirt Web Gold.
Is this indoor or outdoor? What tire inserts are you using.
If I still have issues I will loosen the diff an 1/8th of a turn. These steps usually get back under control.

Talking about diffs the 22 diff needs to be re-adjusted a couple of times after build or rebuild.

If on cement and you punch the throttle does the car go straight or does it pull?

Another problem is unbalanced shocks. Re-check the shocks and adjust with "zero" to little rebound.

One last thing be light on the steering. Do not hold the steering wheel tightly but never let go of it either, this tends to put a slight turn and when power is applied the car will slip out. 2WD are more sensitive to changes.
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Old 12-23-2015, 01:21 PM   #1134
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One thing that was very off when I read your post is the compounds. The MC rubber and M4 rubber are 2 VERY different types of rubber. If M4 worked for your son, try M4 on your car.
I'm sorry, I may have worded that wrong. Yes, I did use M4s' on my car the first outing as we did with his.
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Old 12-23-2015, 01:34 PM   #1135
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When my TLR 22 starts sliding out coming out of a turn it is usually a change in track conditions. My first step is to drop to a softer rear spring. Second is tires. At my track we start the day with Electron M4 then go to a Dirt Web Gold.
Is this indoor or outdoor? What tire inserts are you using.
If I still have issues I will loosen the diff an 1/8th of a turn. These steps usually get back under control.

Talking about diffs the 22 diff needs to be re-adjusted a couple of times after build or rebuild.

If on cement and you punch the throttle does the car go straight or does it pull?

Another problem is unbalanced shocks. Re-check the shocks and adjust with "zero" to little rebound.

One last thing be light on the steering. Do not hold the steering wheel tightly but never let go of it either, this tends to put a slight turn and when power is applied the car will slip out. 2WD are more sensitive to changes.
Thank you mudcat. It is an indoor hard packed track. I use the stock closed cell inserts for the rear with one set m4 and one set mc and then I have 4 sets of fronts with open and closed both m4 and mc. I will defiantly check the diff and recheck the shocks but they were built with little to no rebound but they very well could need adjusting. I haven't done the concrete floor test yet but I will. That is a great suggestion on the wheel, I know exactly what your talking about and will try that, thank you!
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Old 12-23-2015, 04:40 PM   #1136
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Thank you mudcat. It is an indoor hard packed track. I use the stock closed cell inserts for the rear with one set m4 and one set mc and then I have 4 sets of fronts with open and closed both m4 and mc. I will defiantly check the diff and recheck the shocks but they were built with little to no rebound but they very well could need adjusting. I haven't done the concrete floor test yet but I will. That is a great suggestion on the wheel, I know exactly what your talking about and will try that, thank you!
Is it just spinning out or is it like hooking? I run on high bite damp clay with slicks and mine had so much steering I would turn in the front suspension would bottom out and spin the car. I put some kyosho golds that I use to run on my 2.0 and it was great. You could also try the Chris Wheeler setup it lengthens the front camber links and adds stiffer front springs. I don't know if this is what your problem is just throwing out an idea.
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Old 12-23-2015, 06:07 PM   #1137
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Originally Posted by onadcr74 View Post
Thank you mudcat. It is an indoor hard packed track. I use the stock closed cell inserts for the rear with one set m4 and one set mc and then I have 4 sets of fronts with open and closed both m4 and mc. I will defiantly check the diff and recheck the shocks but they were built with little to no rebound but they very well could need adjusting. I haven't done the concrete floor test yet but I will. That is a great suggestion on the wheel, I know exactly what your talking about and will try that, thank you!
The shocks will probably need rebled , I built mine with no rebound and after practice and 1 round the shocks had 100% rebound. Others have had this happen too so definitely check shocks.
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Old 12-23-2015, 07:54 PM   #1138
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I want to apologize in advance for this long post but I am at a loss. My son got his 3.0 first and when we took it to our local track the weather and track moister must have been perfect for the stock setup and M4 Electrons all the way around because this car had more traction then a 1/12 scale! We were so pumped to finally have a 2 wheel buggy that had rear grip! Well, I got mine and, of course, the weather and track changed, as expected, and now we can not get the cars to hook up for nothing. We got MC compound Electrons (my son got several different compounds of dirt webs) also which seemed to help but the thing about it is, there were other guys there last night that said they never had so much rear grip and I didn't get a chance to ask how or why. I'm like wth? I moved the battery back and laid the tops of the shocks in on the rear, everything else is stock. We have plenty of entry grip but when you get to get on it outta the corners it just kicks out and makes the car very hard to drive. Guys, I know that this is almost impossible to determine without actually being and there are so many scenarios there, but so many people say that the box stock setup is so good (with very small changes as need be) but we are having to deviate from it so drastically that I feel that we are missing something (and it doesn't seem to help)? I asked for help at the track and a guy was very helpful but it still didn't completely solve the problem. What does it take to get a 2 wheel buggy to hook up on hard packed, almost blue groove conditions? How much rear traction can a person realistically expect a 2 wheel buggy to have under any conditions? I've been in this hobby for over 20 years and I have always had this trouble with 2 wheel buggies. Maybe it's just me but when I get ready to exit a turn or corner, I expect it to grab and go, not a drifting comp. Again, I know that this is hard to diagnose without being there but what the heck are we doing wrong? I'm afraid that my carpet background may be my Akillies Heel? Everything that we have done has helped, a little and I know that sometimes it's all the little things that add up, it's just that I'm not getting any younger and I can't get to the track as often as possible and it just seems like we are having to work way to hard to achieve what we are after. After 20 years I should be able to figure this out myself and I'd rather but I'm hoping that maybe someone can shed some light on the situation.
Easy things to try first. Use the spacers to move the axles in and move the hubs forward.
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Old 12-23-2015, 10:17 PM   #1139
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I actually came to this thread to post some questions about my ball diff problems as well. I am running on a high-bite indoor carpet track right now. It ran fine for a while but it started barking. So I started slowly tightening it back up but it was still barking all the way to the point that I couldn't really tighten it anymore and I felt the "gritty" feeling you mentioned. I have heard a lot of people have these types of problems on carpet. Should I just stick with a gear diff for carpet and keep the ball diff for dirt? Or is there something I might be doing wrong with the ball diff? Will LOSA2954 work on this buggy? What oil should I start with?
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Old 12-24-2015, 08:13 AM   #1140
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I actually came to this thread to post some questions about my ball diff problems as well. I am running on a high-bite indoor carpet track right now. It ran fine for a while but it started barking. So I started slowly tightening it back up but it was still barking all the way to the point that I couldn't really tighten it anymore and I felt the "gritty" feeling you mentioned. I have heard a lot of people have these types of problems on carpet. Should I just stick with a gear diff for carpet and keep the ball diff for dirt? Or is there something I might be doing wrong with the ball diff? Will LOSA2954 work on this buggy? What oil should I start with?
Yes the gear diff will work. If you do decide to go that direction. Replace the stock seals with Kyosho P5 o-rings. The stockers leak pretty bad and that fixes that problem. When i ran the gear diff on my 2.0 .after a ton of testing with my set up on a med-high bite track...I ended up with 5K losi.

After a bit of time i did go back to the ball dif and found it did work better..
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