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Old 08-23-2016, 10:37 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 12-11-2016, 01:09 AM   #3916
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As someone who owns both cars, built them both from kit form up to carpet cars we drive on dirt, the tlr is a superior product. Not saying the AE is bad by any means, but have you ever wondered why there are all these aftermarket companies that make everything under the sun for AE cars. The quality of components isn't as good as tlr but they get the job done.

As far as driving, one would think they should be somewhat similar... they're not.
AE car is very aggressive and can be pushed very hard, as long as you can keep up with it. The tlr car, very smooth and flowing, car rolls well in transition, jumps very well and is a pleasure to drive.

Both are awesome cars and the misconception that one is drastically cheaper than the other, not true. Very similar once you get your AE "tuned up"
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Old 12-11-2016, 10:46 AM   #3917
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Originally Posted by TimmE View Post
I have had success running the RPM in my 17.5. I run my car at the ROAR minimum weight. The gen3 Tekin's are exceptionally lightweight too.
Is there any benefit to running the rpm? Wondering the reasoning of using one over the other. Thank you.
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Old 12-11-2016, 11:08 AM   #3918
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Originally Posted by LBR_Frank View Post
Is there any benefit to running the rpm? Wondering the reasoning of using one over the other. Thank you.
at the risk of going off topic,

i run the 17.5 rpm, with a yellow torque rotor. i will be trying a 17.5 regular with a torque rotor very soon, i have been told they are punchier...

that said the rpm with tq. rotor is very smooth and fast...
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Old 12-11-2016, 12:19 PM   #3919
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Frank,

Can you comment on standup vs. laydown for the average club driver on indoor clay? For carpet, the original laydown is a requisite to go fast, in my experience. But let's say as a club racer guy, when I hit the clay, am I going to have a much wider setup window with the standup layout? It seems that for stock racing, the laydown is a greater payoff than it is for mod, as carrying corner speed is critical to turning good laps. But would you think that going with the spec racer kit out of the box is going to be better for med-high to high-bite clay, or is converting an original kit to the upcoming dirt laydown better? I'm trying to get a handle on the direction I want to go with my rigs. Especially since I have to travel to hit clay, I don't have the chance to dial in my setup week after week on the same track. Do you think I'll have a higher chance of getting a decent setup with the standup, and consequently turn faster, more consistent laps? Is the ideal laydown setup for each track a much more narrow window that I am likely not to hit in one afternoon club race, therefore making the standup better for me? Or is the window about the same either way?

I hope you can see where I'm coming from and provide your insight, as I know you probably answer these types of questions around the country. Thanks as always for your great support and dedication to us, the user base of your products!
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:16 PM   #3920
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Default Frank Question

At the RC excitement race you guys still ran laydown. Question is why not stand up for this track as it seems like this track seemed to be on the lower end of the bite spectrum. I pose the question because I run on a track that was copied from that one and bite is normally very low to at times medium.
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Old 12-11-2016, 01:32 PM   #3921
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Frank,

Can you comment on standup vs. laydown for the average club driver on indoor clay? For carpet, the original laydown is a requisite to go fast, in my experience. But let's say as a club racer guy, when I hit the clay, am I going to have a much wider setup window with the standup layout? It seems that for stock racing, the laydown is a greater payoff than it is for mod, as carrying corner speed is critical to turning good laps. But would you think that going with the spec racer kit out of the box is going to be better for med-high to high-bite clay, or is converting an original kit to the upcoming dirt laydown better? I'm trying to get a handle on the direction I want to go with my rigs. Especially since I have to travel to hit clay, I don't have the chance to dial in my setup week after week on the same track. Do you think I'll have a higher chance of getting a decent setup with the standup, and consequently turn faster, more consistent laps? Is the ideal laydown setup for each track a much more narrow window that I am likely not to hit in one afternoon club race, therefore making the standup better for me? Or is the window about the same either way?

I hope you can see where I'm coming from and provide your insight, as I know you probably answer these types of questions around the country. Thanks as always for your great support and dedication to us, the user base of your products!
Frank did a good job of addressing this earlier in the thread:
Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Old 12-11-2016, 04:35 PM   #3922
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Frank did a good job of addressing this earlier in the thread:
Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
Thanks! I thought I had read something like this but I couldn't remember if it was actually Frank that talked about it. Trying to search for it especially on the mobile interface, doesn't always produce the posts I am searching for!

The only place I think a laydown is a big difference for a guy like me is on carpet... I speak from experience! It really transformed me from a bottom of the A-main or even getting the bump from B guy into a podium contender at my local carpet track.
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Old 12-11-2016, 08:11 PM   #3923
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at the risk of going off topic,

i run the 17.5 rpm, with a yellow torque rotor. i will be trying a 17.5 regular with a torque rotor very soon, i have been told they are punchier...

that said the rpm with tq. rotor is very smooth and fast...
Appreciate the feedback. Not totally off topic, I am asking so I can decide what to put in my 22 3.0SR when it gets here 😁
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:37 AM   #3924
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Looking for some help rim wise. To run AKA wheels, what is needed to make them work? I know they do have a 10mm from TLR wheel. Do people switch to the 10mm axel from the 2.0? What about the rear wheels?

Thanks
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Old 12-12-2016, 08:48 AM   #3925
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Looking for some help rim wise. To run AKA wheels, what is needed to make them work? I know they do have a 10mm from TLR wheel. Do people switch to the 10mm axel from the 2.0? What about the rear wheels?

Thanks
you can put on the 2.0 axles on the front without an issue. I used to run my buggy like this so I didn't have to buy a brand new set of tires when upgrading from my 2.0

rear wheels will fit but the offset is different from the 2.0. You will have to make up the difference with a spacer on the outside of the wheel so they can be properly tightened.
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Old 12-12-2016, 09:42 AM   #3926
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Originally Posted by TonyWest View Post
At the RC excitement race you guys still ran laydown. Question is why not stand up for this track as it seems like this track seemed to be on the lower end of the bite spectrum. I pose the question because I run on a track that was copied from that one and bite is normally very low to at times medium.
I did bring both cars to RCE, but my laydown car was good from the start. For me, the laydown jumps a little better, and just about always has more corner speed. The RCE track is a "roll around with tight lines" type of track, versus a "slide the car and man handle quick laps" type of track. When you get speed from how quickly you roll around the track, then laydown it better IMO. But, I'm also a pretty experienced driver. I do know that the top 7 or 8 in mod were all running laydown.
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Old 12-12-2016, 10:32 AM   #3927
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I did bring both cars to RCE, but my laydown car was good from the start. For me, the laydown jumps a little better, and just about always has more corner speed. The RCE track is a "roll around with tight lines" type of track, versus a "slide the car and man handle quick laps" type of track. When you get speed from how quickly you roll around the track, then laydown it better IMO. But, I'm also a pretty experienced driver. I do know that the top 7 or 8 in mod were all running laydown.
So I normally run on carpet, but I do get indoor clay about 4 times a year. (I'm looking to up it to once a month on clay though, I just have to commit to traveling more!) For someone like me, would you recommend sticking with the standup or going ahead and committing to the laydown? Does that recommendation differ between mod and stock? I have the laydown on my carpet rig, but I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to set up a dedicated clay rig.

For the type of tracks where corner speed is king, how much of a difference do you feel the laydown makes? In other words, if I'm 1 second per lap off the pace, will the laydown put me there? Or is it more on the range of 0.1 or 0.2 seconds? I know for carpet it made a huge difference for me, maybe a whole second per lap, but I think that's also because it allows proper suspension geometry at low ride heights. Most others are slamming the car to fight traction roll, but don't have the correct geometry so their handling and jumping is compromised.
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Old 12-12-2016, 11:45 AM   #3928
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Originally Posted by Callaway View Post
So I normally run on carpet, but I do get indoor clay about 4 times a year. (I'm looking to up it to once a month on clay though, I just have to commit to traveling more!) For someone like me, would you recommend sticking with the standup or going ahead and committing to the laydown? Does that recommendation differ between mod and stock? I have the laydown on my carpet rig, but I'm trying to figure out how I'm going to set up a dedicated clay rig.

For the type of tracks where corner speed is king, how much of a difference do you feel the laydown makes? In other words, if I'm 1 second per lap off the pace, will the laydown put me there? Or is it more on the range of 0.1 or 0.2 seconds? I know for carpet it made a huge difference for me, maybe a whole second per lap, but I think that's also because it allows proper suspension geometry at low ride heights. Most others are slamming the car to fight traction roll, but don't have the correct geometry so their handling and jumping is compromised.
I'd say its more in the .2-.3 range of difference... maybe more of less depending on driving skill and styles. I do think that laydown is probably more likely to be an improvement in spec classes over mod classes, but the mod drivers are also more likely to be the ones with the skill to pull the extra time out of a laydown. Without knowing your exact skill and track grip/layout type, it for sure makes it hard to say which way I would recommend.
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Old 12-12-2016, 12:22 PM   #3929
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Originally Posted by Frank Root View Post
I did bring both cars to RCE, but my laydown car was good from the start. For me, the laydown jumps a little better, and just about always has more corner speed. The RCE track is a "roll around with tight lines" type of track, versus a "slide the car and man handle quick laps" type of track. When you get speed from how quickly you roll around the track, then laydown it better IMO. But, I'm also a pretty experienced driver. I do know that the top 7 or 8 in mod were all running laydown.
RCE is my home track and i run nothing but a laydown. its certainly a bit harder to control and takes a bit more time to setup but once you do it's rewarding!
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Old 12-12-2016, 01:09 PM   #3930
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Keep this thread on topic. It is a Losi thread, which means this is for people looking for help with their Losi cars. If they wanted advice on other cars, they are free to search the threads for those models.
As the primary instigator of the 22 laydown cost conversation and the eventual comparison to other kits I should confess I did not know that sort of thing was not welcomed in this thread.

I think this is a great place for all of us owners and prospectors to come together and share our ideas. Sometimes constructive criticism is part of that discussion and in my experience, as long as it's conducted in a respectful manner it's usually not a problem.

That being said, it's obviously up to the moderators how this site is used. I'll make sure to keep your suggestion in mind in the future.
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