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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 08-25-2016, 07:55 AM   #3421
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Originally Posted by psycho02 View Post
The predator was ahead of its time. It would be a good car for the current smoother high bite tracks.
It was designed in a market where traction was always super high (UK carpet). If I recall, it was competitive but fragile.

In our region (upper midwest), traction has been steadily falling, not gaining. We were pulling wheelies on slicks in the RM days, now one must dial in the tire prep, or the car will be difficult to drive, and slow. The correct tires, new out of the bag are almost un-drivable.

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Originally Posted by PENN01 View Post
is the 4 gear set up really that much better for low traction dirt track compared to the 3 gear for a novice driver like myself ? Or should i stick to 3 gear and practice my skills as i still feel like i am lacking in traction at my local track ?
I am a long time racer who doesn't race very frequently anymore. I am considering trying the 4-gear because I do not get the practice time necessary to get "fast" with a looser setup. See comment about tire prep above.
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Old 08-25-2016, 09:43 AM   #3422
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
It was designed in a market where traction was always super high (UK carpet). If I recall, it was competitive but fragile.

In our region (upper midwest), traction has been steadily falling, not gaining. We were pulling wheelies on slicks in the RM days, now one must dial in the tire prep, or the car will be difficult to drive, and slow. The correct tires, new out of the bag are almost un-drivable.



I am a long time racer who doesn't race very frequently anymore. I am considering trying the 4-gear because I do not get the practice time necessary to get "fast" with a looser setup. See comment about tire prep above.
I had the first of two predators shipped to the U.S. (seriously). And sadly, I sold it years ago. You had to hand file the first versions of the carbon fiber center shaft to get it to fit. Fun times.

The biggest issue of the car for US tracks was insufficient ride height and droop. You simply couldn't drive it on US tracks with our crazy jumps. It was a pure grass/turf car back in its time. Perfect for a rally or touring car.

I've had 4 gear and 3 gear cars from different manufacturers and overall I prefer 3 gear. When the track is completely blown out or dusty, I do like how the 4 gear just seems to have better forward traction.

But I prefer the overall agility and balanced turning that I experience with a 3 gear, so especially at a lower level of driving, I would give it a try.
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Old 08-25-2016, 11:05 AM   #3423
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I think it's worth a try since the cost is so low for the conversion kit ($17.99 on horizonhobby.com).
Agreed the added traction does help.
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Old 08-25-2016, 12:04 PM   #3424
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Originally Posted by Davidka View Post
It was designed in a market where traction was always super high (UK carpet). If I recall, it was competitive but fragile.

In our region (upper midwest), traction has been steadily falling, not gaining. We were pulling wheelies on slicks in the RM days, now one must dial in the tire prep, or the car will be difficult to drive, and slow. The correct tires, new out of the bag are almost un-drivable.



I am a long time racer who doesn't race very frequently anymore. I am considering trying the 4-gear because I do not get the practice time necessary to get "fast" with a looser setup. See comment about tire prep above.

Yes it was fragile. Kinwald ran one and had some success with it. Was like 97 or something like that? If someone got the design out of mothballs added a touch of durability I think the car would do well.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:04 PM   #3425
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Frank,

On your Stock Nats setup (and others) you have LW listed for traction compound on your gold dirt webs. Is it penetrating or lubricating?

thanks
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:13 PM   #3426
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Frank,

On your Stock Nats setup (and others) you have LW listed for traction compound on your gold dirt webs. Is it penetrating or lubricating?

thanks
Lubricating. I never use the penetrating. If I need something more aggressive, I have some other options
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:14 PM   #3427
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I would say it would help you but it isn't necessary. I found the 4 gear transmission cars felt more planted in the rear. I hope that makes sense.
Thanks Kraig and Frank and every one else who gave advice , Will give it a try

So good to know i bought a kit thats so well supported with people kind enough to share there knowledge with rookie's like myself , Much appreciated
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Old 08-26-2016, 09:03 AM   #3428
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Originally Posted by psycho02 View Post
Yes it was fragile. Kinwald ran one and had some success with it. Was like 97 or something like that? If someone got the design out of mothballs added a touch of durability I think the car would do well.
1997 was the height of Kinwald's Losi reign, and they had the XX4 by then.
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Old 08-26-2016, 10:43 AM   #3429
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1997 was the height of Kinwald's Losi reign, and they had the XX4 by then.
Maybe it was 96 then. I remember he won a roar national title with the predator and then yeah like you said the xx4 came out right shortly after.
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Old 08-26-2016, 01:22 PM   #3430
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Need the alloy. I would recommend them regardless.
Is this the correct part number for the alloy servo mounts TLR331019?

Last edited by Applesauce; 08-26-2016 at 02:35 PM. Reason: info
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Old 08-26-2016, 02:00 PM   #3431
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MIP pucks are also an adjustment but not what the drive line was designed around. They allow the use of alloy out drives but change the amount of bind in the system. Are they popular with modified drivers?
MIP now offers Bi-metal outdrive options too... the inherent problem today is that most kits are only available for Mod racers in mind, and I might be wrong, but there seems to be a growing trend in the US with more folks jumping into stock racing than ever before.

Not trying to spark a debate that everyone needs to run mod, etc.. but the fact remains that there is a demand for stock racing so why not offer a kit with all the stock specific hop ups where, yeah it might be a little more expensive than the mod kit, but certainly far less expensive than a stock racer having to buy all the stock parts separately.

If I had to pick between 2 brands and one offered a "Stock Racing Option", then it would be a no brainer for me to buy that version and save some cash in the long run (slipper elim, aluminum driveline parts). Plus eliminate the headache of trying to research which parts to upgrade, etc..
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Old 08-27-2016, 05:22 AM   #3432
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Will we see a 22 3.0x with the laydown as a kit anytime soon?
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Old 08-27-2016, 07:58 AM   #3433
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If I had to pick between 2 brands and one offered a "Stock Racing Option", then it would be a no brainer for me to buy that version and save some cash in the long run...
The lightweight parts (pucks, slipper eliminators) are all unnecessary. While they make a subtle difference, it is not a great enough difference to measure on the time sheets (you certainly can't tell which cars do and don't have these parts watching them run).

It would result in a more expensive kit that would sell in smaller numbers. This is messy and less profitable. TLR has probably done very well selling parts packs for steering, chassis kits, and Lauren transmission. It would have cost much more to keep rev'ing the kit.
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:50 AM   #3434
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The lightweight parts (pucks, slipper eliminators) are all unnecessary. While they make a subtle difference, it is not a great enough difference to measure on the time sheets (you certainly can't tell which cars do and don't have these parts watching them run).

It would result in a more expensive kit that would sell in smaller numbers. This is messy and less profitable. TLR has probably done very well selling parts packs for steering, chassis kits, and Lauren transmission. It would have cost much more to keep rev'ing the kit.
I'd agree with most of that apart from the laydown conversion - I bought a 3.0 to try as I race at three tracks (1 med to high grip most of the year, 1 med to low and a low grip) and on wet astro / low to med grip the car works very well but when I went to the third track it's undriveable and I'm a second a lap of my kf times and I crash more due to grip roll no matter what I've tried with setup.

The cost of the conversion (150!!!!!!!) and the fact you have to have two chassis as the stand up box won't fit the laydown chassis and vice versa is putting me off getting it and it would be cheaper to go the AE route which is a shame as I think this car has potential but I can't justify the outlay. IMO if losi bought out the car with a chassis that takes both gearboxes, modded the plastic hubs with inserts you flip and supplied both boxes in one kit they would sell more for not a lot of on-cost once the molds are made.

Come on TLR - make it happen!!
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Old 08-28-2016, 07:19 AM   #3435
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Originally Posted by losi8lunie View Post
I'd agree with most of that apart from the laydown conversion - I bought a 3.0 to try as I race at three tracks (1 med to high grip most of the year, 1 med to low and a low grip) and on wet astro / low to med grip the car works very well but when I went to the third track it's undriveable and I'm a second a lap of my kf times and I crash more due to grip roll no matter what I've tried with setup.

The cost of the conversion (150!!!!!!!) and the fact you have to have two chassis as the stand up box won't fit the laydown chassis and vice versa is putting me off getting it and it would be cheaper to go the AE route which is a shame as I think this car has potential but I can't justify the outlay. IMO if losi bought out the car with a chassis that takes both gearboxes, modded the plastic hubs with inserts you flip and supplied both boxes in one kit they would sell more for not a lot of on-cost once the molds are made.

Come on TLR - make it happen!!
I bought the laydown kit and switch between the standup and laydown transmission on the the laydown chassis. I added the two holes for the waterfall for the standup is all. Other than the depressions in the chassis, those two holes are all thats different.
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