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Old 08-23-2016, 10:37 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 08-24-2016, 11:53 AM   #3406
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At the very least, it would be nice to have some sort of PDF template available for folks to print out a copy, tape to their stock chassis and drill the holes themselves instead of having to buy a whole new chassis. That would make it easier for me to pull the trigger on a laydown conversion to experiment with.
Not sure if this is possible but just an idea. When mounting the Anders Lind laydown in a B5m I assembled the trans cases, then put a thin piece of double sided tape over the holes in the case that needed corresponding holes in the chassis. Then took a sharpie and marked the center of those holes on the tape. Carefully lined up the tranny with the chassis, next carefully remove the tranny while making sure the double sided tape is stuck to the chassis. This should allow you to drill the new holes in the proper locations.
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Old 08-24-2016, 01:14 PM   #3407
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I think that laydown cars are faster.... but not quite as easy to drive unless on a track with pretty good grip. I look at it this way, if you are a top 5 in the main guy, you probably have the skill required to drive it and are so close with the guys you are directly competing with that the 1-2 tenths you could pick up matter enough to give it a shot. If you are a middle of the B-main guy, then the laydown will probably prove to not be easy enough to drive and won't improve your results over all... right now you just need to focus on having clean runs, driving faster, etc. then think about laydown a little further down the road when the car starts to become more of a limiting factor.

When I say 'you', that intended for whoever reads this, and not you Bill
This helps, yes I'd say that I fit your description well; I'm in the mix with most of the A Main expert drivers in my area, and starting to get closer with some of the elite drivers, so I might be able to leverage the dirt-laydown option... what I have noticed is that there are times (not very often) where our track gets dusty, or someone might pop a shock shaft and spill shock oil on the track, etc... during those times when traction falls off for most other folks (who also seem to be running laydowns in other brands of cars) my Losi remains hooked on rails. The track I race is sprayed with dirt glue and ran dry which gets very high traction in the summer months, though I'd expect to have to switch back to the standard transmission in the cooler months of winter when traction isn't quite as high as it currently is. There's probably a fine line that I'm seeing where some local expert drivers are inconsistent, they'll take TQ and the win one week, then place 4th or 5th the following week. It only makes me wonder if the laydowns they're running are the reason?

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Originally Posted by Matt Trimmings View Post
Not sure if this is possible but just an idea. When mounting the Anders Lind laydown in a B5m I assembled the trans cases, then put a thin piece of double sided tape over the holes in the case that needed corresponding holes in the chassis. Then took a sharpie and marked the center of those holes on the tape. Carefully lined up the tranny with the chassis, next carefully remove the tranny while making sure the double sided tape is stuck to the chassis. This should allow you to drill the new holes in the proper locations.
That's an excellent idea! I've used tracing paper in the past to transfer mounting holes for battery trays in nitro to electric buggy conversions, but wasn't sure how I could make that work to line up existing holes so carpet tape seems like the perfect solution... thanks!
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Old 08-24-2016, 02:37 PM   #3408
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If I am not mistaken, the chassis plate that comes with the laydown is milled differently therefore it has different flex characteristics than the chassis that comes in the kit.

As for splitting the thread to standup and laydown, I am not for it at this time. I see these two types of transmissions as options available to tune/dial in the car for the track conditions you are racing on.
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Old 08-24-2016, 02:39 PM   #3409
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Frank nailed it on the head if you're a B-main guy like me. I made the transition to the laydown after taking a ~3 month break - coming back the car felt like a different type of buggy because of my driving skills (lack of...) and rust. Now that I'm 6+ weeks back into racing I see how my times are better with the change to the laydown (I'm now evaluating the dirt tranny).

At the end of the day for me it comes back to driving cleaner/smoother/smarter. The buggy rewards stick time - find a setup you like, stick with it and you'll start to shave those tenths off the lap times.
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Old 08-24-2016, 03:27 PM   #3410
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Originally Posted by billdelong View Post
This helps, yes I'd say that I fit your description well; I'm in the mix with most of the A Main expert drivers in my area, and starting to get closer with some of the elite drivers, so I might be able to leverage the dirt-laydown option... what I have noticed is that there are times (not very often) where our track gets dusty, or someone might pop a shock shaft and spill shock oil on the track, etc... during those times when traction falls off for most other folks (who also seem to be running laydowns in other brands of cars) my Losi remains hooked on rails. The track I race is sprayed with dirt glue and ran dry which gets very high traction in the summer months, though I'd expect to have to switch back to the standard transmission in the cooler months of winter when traction isn't quite as high as it currently is. There's probably a fine line that I'm seeing where some local expert drivers are inconsistent, they'll take TQ and the win one week, then place 4th or 5th the following week. It only makes me wonder if the laydowns they're running are the reason?



That's an excellent idea! I've used tracing paper in the past to transfer mounting holes for battery trays in nitro to electric buggy conversions, but wasn't sure how I could make that work to line up existing holes so carpet tape seems like the perfect solution... thanks!
It's hard to say for me, it just depends. The only way to know, is to try.
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Old 08-24-2016, 04:10 PM   #3411
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If I am not mistaken, the chassis plate that comes with the laydown is milled differently therefore it has different flex characteristics than the chassis that comes in the kit.
Aluminum and flex aren't 2 words that I'm used to seeing in the same sentence

If someone wanted to tune with chassis flex, then why not make a couple different thickness options in carbon fiber like they do with touring cars?

Speaking of which, there's been a lot of talk about Ty Tessman running inverted shocks at the Nats, what I think would be really cool instead is for off-road manufacturers to take a look at what Awesomatix is doing with their LCG shock system to further carry over high traction racing concepts that have been dominating the on-road industry:
http://jdandracing.blogspot.com/2005...sentation.html

Also note that they already include the MIP Pucks/Rollers style shafts in their kits, that would be a nice feature to have out of the box, or should I say a "Stock Version Kit" with all the lightened drive line parts already bundled so consumers don't have to buy twice to get lightened parts
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Old 08-24-2016, 08:18 PM   #3412
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Aluminum has flex just like any material. The reason it's used is because it's popular right now. Molded fiber reinforced tubs were superior in many ways (the B5rm still used one).

Awesomatix's design is neat but they're working with 10-15mm of travel? The Predator 4wd chassis used linkage suspension for lcg but it eventually went away.

MIP pucks are also an adjustment but not what the drive line was designed around. They allow the use of alloy out drives but change the amount of bind in the system. Are they popular with modified drivers?
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Old 08-24-2016, 10:02 PM   #3413
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Aluminum has flex just like any material. The reason it's used is because it's popular right now. Molded fiber reinforced tubs were superior in many ways (the B5rm still used one).

Awesomatix's design is neat but they're working with 10-15mm of travel? The Predator 4wd chassis used linkage suspension for lcg but it eventually went away.

MIP pucks are also an adjustment but not what the drive line was designed around. They allow the use of alloy out drives but change the amount of bind in the system. Are they popular with modified drivers?
The predator was ahead of its time. It would be a good car for the current smoother high bite tracks.
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Old 08-25-2016, 03:30 AM   #3414
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is the 4 gear set up really that much better for low traction dirt track compared to the 3 gear for a novice driver like myself ? Or should i stick to 3 gear and practice my skills as i still feel like i am lacking in traction at my local track ?
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:11 AM   #3415
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Ok, you like the tlr3.0 laydown, and that is cool. You say the tlr is the easiest? How so? The yok, xray and AE cars come with laydowns, no need to buy a chassis and etc. You have the b6, but never messed with it, yet the tlr is by far the best? How so? I am all for side by side comparisons, that talk to the strengths and weaknesses of the cars. But your blanket statements are not very well supported in your post. Please elaborate.
out of the box experience in setups. TLR is to me the closest to being near perffect for the track I run at. The AE is tail happy because there is not enough weight under the transmission so I will have to buy plates and the aluminum or brass blocks for the rear to lock it in, not a bad car, just not a great starting setup. Same with Yokomo, had to add weight under the transmission to lock it in, in the form of steel C-D plates as well as adding 21grams of stick on weight in place of the aluminum pieces that were already on the car, raise the tranny by 1mm. With the TLR car, I just basically changed chassis and gearbox and it was really good, no fishtails. I'm sure after the rebuild of the local track we finally get, all of the cars will drive basically well no matter what reasonable setup I choose to run since the track will be as high bite as SRS. But as it stands now with what I wouldn't call ideal conditions for a laydown, the TLR for me has been the best "oob experience". While I am at it, I will say this as well, yes it was expensive, but having a machined gearbox, my transmission feels perfectly aligned, whereas the other cars don't feel as well put together. Just giving you my take on my experiences with the 3 cars. I will say this about the TLR car compaired to the other two, it's kinda not stock spec racing ready as it is a little heavy (1540) as of right now. The Yokomo without adding was way under legal, and the AE is `1530. 1520 has always been my stock sweet spot, so maybe a lock out and some reedy 13 gauge wire on the R10.1 (speed control I run in every car) will get the TLR close to that weight, average laps times do favor the TLR though due to the stability I find inherent of the platform.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:50 AM   #3416
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Support vs Supported by. I didn't find anything trollish....just seeking additional info. Saying you haven't messed much with the "other" car while saying the current car you've probably put countless packs through is better doesn't say much.

To the OP Rozzy, If you want an unbiased review look up Jason Snyder's videos on Youtube. He reviews both the 3.0 and the B6 (although I don't believe he has done a TLR laydown review yet).

Overall we don't need to litter the 3.0 thread with B6 posts and the same for the B6 thread.
Countless packs on one car vs. the other? Nope. Both cars were built the same 2 day periods, and the same amount of time with them was spent. The Yokomo in fact is the car I have countless packs on, so dont go assuming you know the amount of time I have on either car please.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:55 AM   #3417
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Countless packs on one car vs. the other? Nope. Both cars were built the same 2 day periods, and the same amount of time with them was spent. The Yokomo in fact is the car I have countless packs on, so dont go assuming you know the amount of time I have on either car please.
I said countless packs due to the fact you have owned a 22 3.0 in some form or another for longer than you have owned a B6. We don't need to get into it though, we know your opinion.
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Old 08-25-2016, 05:59 AM   #3418
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I said countless packs due to the fact you have owned a 22 3.0 in some form or another for longer than you have owned a B6. We don't need to get into it though, we know your opinion.
The conversion was done at the same time the B6 was built, it drives nothing like my stand up 22 3.0. Both cars have approximately 5 packs each through them just for refference. And also for refference I thought the 22 3.0 stand up car was terrible when it first came out, so i'm not a TLR fanboi. It took a lot of work to get it figured out.
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Old 08-25-2016, 06:22 AM   #3419
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is the 4 gear set up really that much better for low traction dirt track compared to the 3 gear for a novice driver like myself ? Or should i stick to 3 gear and practice my skills as i still feel like i am lacking in traction at my local track ?
I would say it would help you but it isn't necessary. I found the 4 gear transmission cars felt more planted in the rear. I hope that makes sense.
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Old 08-25-2016, 07:47 AM   #3420
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is the 4 gear set up really that much better for low traction dirt track compared to the 3 gear for a novice driver like myself ? Or should i stick to 3 gear and practice my skills as i still feel like i am lacking in traction at my local track ?
I think it's worth a try since the cost is so low for the conversion kit ($17.99 on horizonhobby.com).
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