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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 07-30-2016, 05:35 AM   #3286
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Originally Posted by K_King View Post

In my non-engineering opinion, having a chassis made for one purpose is better than one made for multiple.

My sources:

https://books.google.com/books?id=z4...page&q&f=false

And

http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~car...al%20Draft.pdf

The best method, off the top of my head, without a pot of coffee yet, is to test deflection. Basically, 4, 3mm holes aren't going to have a massive impact on deflection, especially when drilled and countersunk correctly without distorting the sheet.
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Old 07-30-2016, 07:21 AM   #3287
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Does anyone use the laydown trans on low to medium bite clay outdoors?
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:00 AM   #3288
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Originally Posted by gokarter64 View Post
Same diff height as the dirt car. Its near identical except the exotek uses regular sized idler gears vs the big one on the tlr conversion
I think they (Exotek) raised the diff centerline 1 to 2 mm from standard:

Here is a bullet note from their website:
- Slightly raised diff gear position aids in running lower ride heights.
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #3289
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Originally Posted by Socket View Post
My sources:

https://books.google.com/books?id=z4...page&q&f=false

And

http://www.ewp.rpi.edu/hartford/~car...al%20Draft.pdf

The best method, off the top of my head, without a pot of coffee yet, is to test deflection. Basically, 4, 3mm holes aren't going to have a massive impact on deflection, especially when drilled and countersunk correctly without distorting the sheet.
Ideally a chassis would cover all weight bias possibilities. By having moved points of gearbox attachments points you change the flex points, while not good by itself you can change that to suit the expected conditions the car would run in that configuration.

The ball is on the TLR side, gearboxes that can be raised or lowered, same with front/rear hubs in order to cut down part count and out of the box adjustability is going to benefit everyone.
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Old 07-30-2016, 09:04 AM   #3290
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One important thing Exotek doesn't do is allow battery movement forward or back. It looks like you only have one location to mount the battery (outside of possibly 3 to 5mm max movement).
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:31 AM   #3291
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One important thing Exotek doesn't do is allow battery movement forward or back. It looks like you only have one location to mount the battery (outside of possibly 3 to 5mm max movement).
I believe the TLR laydown kit is the same way: you get 1 battery position. That's what I recall from seeing one in person at a Beach Rc club race a couple weeks ago.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:31 AM   #3292
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Originally Posted by 30Tooth View Post
Ideally a chassis would cover all weight bias possibilities. By having moved points of gearbox attachments points you change the flex points, while not good by itself you can change that to suit the expected conditions the car would run in that configuration.

The ball is on the TLR side, gearboxes that can be raised or lowered, same with front/rear hubs in order to cut down part count and out of the box adjustability is going to benefit everyone.

I was mainly taking about milled areas. Coming from Kyosho we had a problem on the 4w with too much flex and they ended up with a new chassis. I believe in the 3.0 the milled areas on the standard chassis are different on the laydown.
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Old 07-30-2016, 11:43 AM   #3293
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Originally Posted by K_King View Post
I was mainly taking about milled areas. Coming from Kyosho we had a problem on the 4w with too much flex and they ended up with a new chassis. I believe in the 3.0 the milled areas on the standard chassis are different on the laydown.
The milled areas are different. But you could effectively make them work. One option would require a 1mm taller waterfall to sit in the recession on the laydown chassis. The cutout on the laydown chassis allows the rear to flex around without being interrupted by the motor hitting it. TLR has the ability to make one chassis to do the job. I have used Solidworks for like 4 years of stress testing and 2-4 holes will not make that much difference in flex. The machined slots in the chassis on the other hand are more critical to the flex the car would have.

What I would like to see is new rear hub design that allows for axle height changes. Similar design to the pan cars rear axle that way it doesn't affect the outer distance of the roll center ball stud and hinge pin.
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:01 PM   #3294
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Has anyone made or tried a CF chassis for this car? I like the aluminum on it, but just curious. Seems like it could be a tuning option, or weight saving option for stock.
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Old 07-30-2016, 12:30 PM   #3295
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Has anyone made or tried a CF chassis for this car? I like the aluminum on it, but just curious. Seems like it could be a tuning option, or weight saving option for stock.
Exotek did. It has A LOT of flex.
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Old 07-30-2016, 01:22 PM   #3296
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The milled areas are different. But you could effectively make them work. One option would require a 1mm taller waterfall to sit in the recession on the laydown chassis. The cutout on the laydown chassis allows the rear to flex around without being interrupted by the motor hitting it. TLR has the ability to make one chassis to do the job. I have used Solidworks for like 4 years of stress testing and 2-4 holes will not make that much difference in flex. The machined slots in the chassis on the other hand are more critical to the flex the car would have.

What I would like to see is new rear hub design that allows for axle height changes. Similar design to the pan cars rear axle that way it doesn't affect the outer distance of the roll center ball stud and hinge pin.
I would believe those changes to the waterfall and chassis are already under production, TLR can't afford to get left behind.

You mean like the B6? I agree but the +3mm hubs can work better in all conditions than the stock hubs, talking about suspension geometry alone. They are something I've tried and used for years in other cars (ZX5) with great success.
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Old 07-30-2016, 03:11 PM   #3297
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I would believe those changes to the waterfall and chassis are already under production, TLR can't afford to get left behind.

You mean like the B6? I agree but the +3mm hubs can work better in all conditions than the stock hubs, talking about suspension geometry alone. They are something I've tried and used for years in other cars (ZX5) with great success.
The b6 actually raises the upper ball stud (reference in their manual to shim changes you have to do when you raise it). I am referring to an eccentric bushing in an aluminum hub that can be setup to be 3mm high to as low as the kit.

I currently run the 3mm hubs with the dirt transmission to help free up the rear end for more rotation. Besides moving the inner hinge pin, it also moved the weight around on to the front of the car making the rear end pivot smoother on sticky tight tracks.
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Old 07-31-2016, 06:50 AM   #3298
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The b6 actually raises the upper ball stud (reference in their manual to shim changes you have to do when you raise it). I am referring to an eccentric bushing in an aluminum hub that can be setup to be 3mm high to as low as the kit.

I currently run the 3mm hubs with the dirt transmission to help free up the rear end for more rotation. Besides moving the inner hinge pin, it also moved the weight around on to the front of the car making the rear end pivot smoother on sticky tight tracks.
Oh I see what you're saying regarding the insert, an insert that just changes axle height right? Some 1/8th on road cars had bearing inserts in the hubs that did just that.

When I ran the 22 I only liked the 20* kick up shim, even with the 0* spindles. The way it released from the corners was good, could be even better with less shims on the inner front camber link but never tried that. Funnily enough I also liked the 1.0 front end parts.
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Old 07-31-2016, 07:04 AM   #3299
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Well I ran the laydown conversion with the dirt tranny yesterday. I was not sure what to expect since I have never driven a laydown car. Running on a medium bite indoor clay track. We run slicks in super soft compound. Clay compound tires do not work at our track. Overall impressions are good. The car is pretty easy to drive and stable. All I did is basically run the car stock setup and just adjusted the shim in the rear tower to the zero position. Car was good but need a little more steering. Another issue I'm having all thou minor, is my orion 4500 shorty is a really, really tight fit in the battery compartment. Using all orion electronics and wondering if frank if possible could you post a pic of how your wiring is setup?
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Old 07-31-2016, 10:53 AM   #3300
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Originally Posted by tony montana View Post
Well I ran the laydown conversion with the dirt tranny yesterday. I was not sure what to expect since I have never driven a laydown car. Running on a medium bite indoor clay track. We run slicks in super soft compound. Clay compound tires do not work at our track. Overall impressions are good. The car is pretty easy to drive and stable. All I did is basically run the car stock setup and just adjusted the shim in the rear tower to the zero position. Car was good but need a little more steering. Another issue I'm having all thou minor, is my orion 4500 shorty is a really, really tight fit in the battery compartment. Using all orion electronics and wondering if frank if possible could you post a pic of how your wiring is setup?
I found the same thing with the Orion. It appears to be a just a hair larger than the other batteries - ProTek 4250 I run.
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