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Old 08-23-2016, 10:37 AM   -   Wikipost
R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

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Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 02-23-2016, 05:12 PM   #2146
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Originally Posted by lanmine657 View Post
So loving my 3.0 but wish I could get some better stearing, running kit set up with 1.6 35wt red coil front, 1.7 32wt yellow rear, battery 9mil forward. Car has a ton of push and feels like it doesn't turn as sharp as my 2.0 did, almost like the travel is limited, any thoughts? Thanks
I have a few facets that may help you improve your steering...

----------------------------------------------

1. Exotek v2 steering rack- Have on both my 22SCT 2.0 and my 22 3.0 and it helped with a bit more steering by stiffening things up, improving the Ackermann, smoother and more precise steering action, and increased durability, and looks

2. Weight transfer is huge! Adjusting weight transfer can drastically improve steering on different surfaces. A slightly softer spring, lower wt shock oil in the front, higher in the rear, and shock positioning can def help improve steering by changing the back to front weight transfer.

On the contrary, for increased side to side weight transfer to improve steering, mainly on high bite tracks such as very very high bite clay tracks, but mostly on carpet or Astro, you can run the HRC front and rear pivots. This allows the weight to transfer from side to side in a more pronounced fashion, thus increasing side bite, traction, and steering...it's basically increasing body roll, which if you increase too much you can loose too much traction and steering but just the right amount will help greatly. On high bite surfaces, the LRC setup is more prone to pushing or over steering, essentially sliding, usually due to carpet/Astro setups typically being setup with stiffer components and suspension, as well as the ride height being so low, there's barely any weight transfer in corners, hindering steering. That's where the HRC really shines.

Lastly, 4 gear transmissions provide more dramatic back to front and vice versa weight transfer. This tends to improve corner entry by planting the nose of the car down and increasing traction and I till corner bite. Then exiting the corner on the power a 4 gear plants the rear end, increasing exit speed and stability. However, a 3 gear trans will rotate around corners better and have a more consistent weight transfer balance remaining relatively flat with less weight transfer. This is typically better for high bite tracks, while a 4 gear may be better for lower bite tracks...all depending on the driver style.

3. Battery positioning - In addition, I found playing with the battery a tad more forward can help improve steering, especially considering the 3.0 has the more rearward, mid motor than the 2.0 buggy, it can benefit from more forward or central weight.

4. Balance - Coincidentally to my previous point, I have found that using a full sized servo in the 3.0 helps with balance and steering, since again the motor/tranny is further back, a full sized servo up front helps balance out the buggy. I then play with battery positioning depending on the surface I am running. Higher bite, battery forward. Med bite, in the middle. And lower bite, all the way back.

----------------------------------------------

I hope that information helps. And I hope my explanation was accurate and made sense to you. If anyone agrees or can correct me if I'm wrong about some things, please let me know. This is what I have found from my experience with RC, as well as with my Subaru STI - modifying and tuning it for auto x/racing, and my years racing motocross have all improved my knowledge and experience with handling.

Last edited by lyons238; 02-23-2016 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:20 PM   #2147
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I had a 22 2.0, built it, and included an Exotek bell crank system. Never ran it, but fast forward a few years I'm considering getting a 3.0. I'm happy to see I don't need to bell crank system but I'm curious if there are upgrades that should be suggested?

I saw that the Hexes are plastic, I'll probably find new hexes. I'm also considering the MIP Pucks Shiny drive system. I like the idea of less wear on the outdrives. Any other suggestions? Suggestions don't have to be strictly performance based.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:27 PM   #2148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdawson1962 View Post
Hey Frank could I get your input on this
I think it smooths out the steering. I run a standard ball stud since it can be titanium with 1mm. This is the same as a low mount, which is -1mm from standard, with 2mm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juicy74 View Post
Would it be 'wrong' to use drag brake to help the car turn?
I run 12% for mod, and 5% in stock.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:52 PM   #2149
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Originally Posted by Orion_2kTC View Post
I had a 22 2.0, built it, and included an Exotek bell crank system. Never ran it, but fast forward a few years I'm considering getting a 3.0. I'm happy to see I don't need to bell crank system but I'm curious if there are upgrades that should be suggested?

I saw that the Hexes are plastic, I'll probably find new hexes. I'm also considering the MIP Pucks Shiny drive system. I like the idea of less wear on the outdrives. Any other suggestions? Suggestions don't have to be strictly performance based.
Are you going to run stock or mod? Also what surface do you run on most frequently. These factors will determine what you may or may not need...

For mod don't waste your money on pucks IMO, I did before and it's a pain replacing the plastic pieces so often and if you don't you ruin the outdrives. I believe they make or are making a new roller system which you won't need to replace like the Pucks but I'm not sure when they will have it for the 3.0 or if it will be worth it. Stock class is so expensive to be competitive these days, I definitely regret wasting the money on trying to be competitive there, because at the end of the day stock racing is still slow and can get boring once you master your track.

The 3.0 is pretty great out of the box and you shouldn't change much, especially to start. However, some must have mods for me are mostly for decreasing unsprung weight, increasing durability, improving handling (steering/traction/etc), and finally bling. I built my buggy to race mod and here are some worth while upgrades...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Essential upgrades:
- Alum rear hex (for mod)
- Alum front pivot (25* and HRC if you ever run on carpet/astro)
- Alum HRC rear pivots/hinges (only if you run on carpet/astro)
- Low freq spring packs (front and rear)
- 32.5 weight shock oil for the rear (30 weight in front)
- Lunsford Ti "Super Duty" turnbuckles w/ open ball cups (reduced unsprung weight, easy access to)
- Lunsford Ti ball stud kit (reduced unsprung weight)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beyond those upgrades, will mostly be for bling or specific surfaces or driving style improvements. Some very very high bite or low bite surfaces might call for a few different/additional parts, let me know what surface you mostly run on and I can try and help.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my complete setup:


- TLR 22 3.0 kit

Electronics:
- KO Propo EX-2 w/ left handed expert grip and receiver
- Tekin RSX
- Trinity D4 7.5t
- Savox SC1258TG Black
- (2) Trinity RevTec 5000mah shorty
- TQ 13g black wire

Exotek:
- Shock collar/perch (yellow)
- Servo mounts (black)
- Steering rack (yellow)
- Front camber block (yellow)
- Battery post/nut (black)
- CF shock tower (front)

TLR:
- Rear camber block
- HRC rear pivot
- HRC front pivot
- Aluminum LRC front pivot
- Ti-Cn front through pins
- Low freq front and rear spring kit
- Alum rear hubs
- Alum rear hexes
- Alum front axles
- Low profile wheel nuts

Lunsford Ti
- Ti Super Duty turnbuckles w/ open ball cups
- Ti ball stud kit

Other:
- Serpent SRX2 rear gear diff w/ Kyosho shims and updated o rings
- JC front aero wing (narrow)
- Hitec 2x charger

Tires:
- Schumacher Mini pin 2 rears (blue) w medium inserts
- Schumacher Lowpro stagger cut front (yellow)
- JC Barcodes front and rear (gold)

Last edited by lyons238; 02-23-2016 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:55 PM   #2150
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Originally Posted by LKF View Post
little video about tlr 22 3.0 assembly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbMbwotoS1k
That is one hell of a soldering iron!!
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:35 PM   #2151
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Originally Posted by lanmine657 View Post
So loving my 3.0 but wish I could get some better stearing, running kit set up with 1.6 35wt red coil front, 1.7 32wt yellow rear, battery 9mil forward. Car has a ton of push and feels like it doesn't turn as sharp as my 2.0 did, almost like the travel is limited, any thoughts? Thanks
I am running 1.6's front, 1.7's rear with 30wt in all four corners running the kit springs front and back. I have raced it on high bite and medium to low bite with my battery back and steering has not been an issue.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:53 PM   #2152
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I was at motorama this past weekend. And watches dustins car and I just can't help but notice how much rip his car had compared to mine. I'm basically running all the same electronics as him except I'm using a orion 8.5 and not a 7.5. His car looked to clear the jumps with ease where as had to go wide in the turns and get a good run to the jumps to clear them. Basically I wanted to ask him what was his esc settings on his r10.1 but I knew he was busy working on his cars and didn't want to be a pain.
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Old 02-23-2016, 07:17 PM   #2153
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I tune with the motor... need to clear the jumps... get a 7.5
Quote:
Originally Posted by tony montana View Post
I was at motorama this past weekend. And watches dustins car and I just can't help but notice how much rip his car had compared to mine. I'm basically running all the same electronics as him except I'm using a orion 8.5 and not a 7.5. His car looked to clear the jumps with ease where as had to go wide in the turns and get a good run to the jumps to clear them. Basically I wanted to ask him what was his esc settings on his r10.1 but I knew he was busy working on his cars and didn't want to be a pain.
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Old 02-23-2016, 07:28 PM   #2154
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has anyone run this on carpet or astro. Im getting back into racing again and everyone is saying xray or schumacher in our area. They said that the 22 3.0 has the motor too far back for high bite. Im trying to make the right decision here, as i have nothing now so I am starting fresh.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:37 PM   #2155
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Originally Posted by the big rc View Post
has anyone run this on carpet or astro. Im getting back into racing again and everyone is saying xray or schumacher in our area. They said that the 22 3.0 has the motor too far back for high bite. Im trying to make the right decision here, as i have nothing now so I am starting fresh.
TLR drivers were spotted on astro with a low and forward motor/tranny. I'm assuming this will eventually be released to the public.

However, I was also in a similar situation to you, and I went with the 3.0. XRAY is nice but parts availability and people running them locally to learn from is near impossible and they also update the car every year, its frustrating to keep up with which part is which etc. If you scroll up a couple posts you can see my entire setup. I added a lot of upgrades to stiffen up the car, as well as to get some more weight forward in the car. If you scroll up even higher on this page, you can see my post where I gave some information on how to improve steering, but I actually gave a ton of info on creating balance, and weight transfer for high bite situations like carpet/astro.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Basically for now these changes will get your 3.0 carpet ready;

-------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Stiffen things up:
- Exotek steering rack
- Exotek servo mount
- Exotek CF shock tower
- TLR alum rear hubs
- TLR alum rear hexes
- Ti turnbuckles (less flex than steel)

2. Front traction/weight/balance:
- Full size servo
- Battery position all the way forward
- JConcepts front Aero wing

3. Suspension/weight transfer:
- Stiffer rear springs with heavier oil
- Softer front springs with lighter oil
- Lower ride height
- HRC front and rear pivots

4. Driveline:
- Gear diff (i use the serpent SRX2 rear gear diff, but TLR does make one)

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, you can scroll up to see descriptions on how and why these things help.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:42 PM   #2156
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Originally Posted by tony montana View Post
I was at motorama this past weekend. And watches dustins car and I just can't help but notice how much rip his car had compared to mine. I'm basically running all the same electronics as him except I'm using a orion 8.5 and not a 7.5. His car looked to clear the jumps with ease where as had to go wide in the turns and get a good run to the jumps to clear them. Basically I wanted to ask him what was his esc settings on his r10.1 but I knew he was busy working on his cars and didn't want to be a pain.
You should have asked, he always makes time to help, a really nice guy.

We run as below:

DRRS (punch) #5 or #7, usually #5.
12% Drag Brake
62.5 Brake Force
Initial Brake = Drag Brake
Neutral Range 9%
Sometimes turbo and or boost, usually no higher than 5%, but he maybe didn't run it there.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:44 PM   #2157
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Last edited by Matt M.; 03-11-2017 at 03:28 AM.
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Old 02-23-2016, 09:46 PM   #2158
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Originally Posted by lyons238 View Post
1. Exotek v2 steering rack- Have on both my 22SCT 2.0 and my 22 3.0 and it helped with a bit more steering by stiffening things up, improving the Ackermann, smoother and more precise steering action, and increased durability, and looks
Careful, going to the Exotek rack is a step backwards as it was engineered for the 2.0 with the original 2.0 spindles. The 3.0 has the updated spindles engineered for the TLR rack.

My 3.0 has a ton of steering without any extra parts. The changes I've made to the front end are as follows:

Long VLA
Red front springs
2mm washer on front bulkhead
1mm bump steer washer
1mm Ackerman washer

Keep in mind this is all contingent upon everything else being setup and working properly, with tires being #1!
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:02 PM   #2159
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Lyons: I'll be running stock. My plan is Orion r10 stock esc, Orion motor, Airtronics m12s and airtronics servo, smc batteries.
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Old 02-23-2016, 10:16 PM   #2160
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Originally Posted by Frank Root View Post
I run 12% for mod, and 5% in stock.
When you are driving any new car for the 1st time, is the drag brake already set in there or you start with zero?
Also, what is the 1st step i should take to increase steering? To tune the car or tune the drag brake first?
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