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R/C Tech Forums Thread Wiki: Official TLR 22 3.0 Race Kit Thread!
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Cub86 posted the question: Hi. I'm struggling to understand the lay down situation. I run on high bite damp smooth clay and think the conversation would help on my surface but from what I'm reading I need to buy the lay down kit tlr338004. And the dirt gear case tlr332063. But do I really need both from what I've read the dirt case is 1-2mm higher anyway and u don't use the +3mm hubs or the front pivot hrc or Hrc mod. So is the dirt lay down kit tlr332063 is all that's needed to get me a lay down set up that's suited for clay With the components and car I already have. And if I only get the dirt case is there any problems that will need to be addressed IE.. bone plunge . I do know I'll need 1mm spacers on the waterfall to clear the battery. Thanks guys really trying to get my head around this.

Franks response:
Laydown Conversion will work great by itself. You run the aluminum +3mm hubs, the diff is +3.5mm, and you run the HRC front setup. Just follow a setup sheet from tlracing.com (Frank Root).

Dirt Tranny has the diff at the same height as the standard tranny case, and works with the standard plastic hubs. Both are +/- 0mm from stock. When you run this, no need to run the HRC front mod either.

I've found the stock laydown conversion parts to work great for most tracks. The dirt tranny is a great tuning option, but definitely not 'required'.

K.King
Something I made, pretty basic. Just to give people an idea.

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Old 01-12-2016, 09:44 AM   #1531
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It seems to be a common misconception that the block moves out to the 2nd set of holes. But it actually stays in the same place, you just move the pin from the inner holes to the outer holes, and that changes the pivot point on the outer arm. As far as how it affects the car. There are probably others here that are better at explaining it than me.
This is a good way to explain it, you have to realize that when changing VLA you are not moving the caster block in or out on the arm. The caster block stays in the same place, it's just the pivot point of the block that changes. This changes the "length" of the arm just by moving it's pivot point in or out while keeping everything else in the same place. Changing from wide to narrow involves only moving the hinge pins in or out, but keeping the caster block in the same exact spot.

And for-what-it's-worth, the VLA is not a new idea to TLR kits. My XXX-NT2 had VLA arms and I'm pretty sure my XXX-T (one of the revisions) had it, too. The manual of the XXX-NT 2 does a decent job of explaining the effects of VLA.

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Shortening the front arm length will give you less steering, and the truck will drive much smoother. This can be good on tracks where the
front of the truck feels twitchy, such as high-bite; blue-groove tracks. One thing to keep in mind is; as you shorten the front arm, you are
actually making the camber link longer in relation to the front arm. Knowing this, you may want to shorten the front camber link when using
the short arm location. The longer front arm setting will have more all-around steering, which is key on tracks where front grip
is important.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:19 AM   #1532
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I'm running the Casper setup with the TLR gear diff and no issues at all. I triple checked the thing and its not rubbing one bit.
Even running 2 gears in the diff the width of the diff should still be the same.

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As I mentioned before mine definitely scrubs in the housing. I added shims like these but once I had enough to eliminate the scrub the housing felt like it was too tight around the diff assembly once the bolts through the housing were tightened.



The only thing I can think of that might be the difference between some scrubbing and some not (besides some tolerances within the housing) is the thickness of the gasket underneath the diff gear cover. If it is too thick it might add enough to the overall width to cause the scrub. Maybe it swells over time from exposure to the oil? Just speculating.....
That's weird.
My did scrub and I cut a spacer out of lexan until the shims came. It only took 1 shim for mine not to scrub. I have the tranny screws fully tightened down also. Maybe it's because I put the shim on the bearing in between the tranny housing and the bearing.
I guess the spacer may not work for everyone but I was just throwing it out there for people to try that want to run the gear diff and theirs is scrubbing.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:35 AM   #1533
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Correct 2 gear setup will not change how the diff fits in the car. I have have not issues with the diff rubbing in the case.
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Old 01-12-2016, 10:59 AM   #1534
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Correct 2 gear setup will not change how the diff fits in the car. I have have not issues with the diff rubbing in the case.
Mine scrubbed to the point that with out a shim if I tightened the tranny case fully it would lock. I bet not everyone will have this problem with small differences in the molded plastic. My diff scrubbed on the flat side with the screws and the shim fixed it. Just tossing it out there for anyone who is having scrubbing.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:06 AM   #1535
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Even running 2 gears in the diff the width of the diff should still be the same.
Exactly, I did not mean to imply that the internal configuration of the diff had any effect on width.

My diff is over a year old too, so that shouldn't make any difference either.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:09 AM   #1536
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I hate to ask a dumb question, but what is diff "scrubbing"?
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:46 AM   #1537
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I hate to ask a dumb question, but what is diff "scrubbing"?
The side of the diff case is rubbing on the trans case.
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Old 01-12-2016, 11:56 AM   #1538
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I hate to ask a dumb question, but what is diff "scrubbing"?
Some people are having trouble with the optional gear diff scrubbing on the transmission case.
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Old 01-12-2016, 12:03 PM   #1539
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"Shortening the front arm length will give you less steering, and the car will drive much smoother."

"The longer arm length will help slow the reactions of the car, making it feel less twitchy."

OK, which is it? I took these two quotes from just a few posts ago. Seems to me they are contradicting each other. Of course, I guess, depending on how you look at it, less steering and twitchy could be two totally separate things. A car could have less steering but still feel twitchy, but the way I'm reading them is that the one is saying that the shorter arm is smoother and the other is saying the longer arm is "less twitchy" or as I take it, smoother. So, which is it, shorter VLA smoother or longer VLA smoother? Or is it me being a dumb ass.......again.
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Old 01-12-2016, 12:22 PM   #1540
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No not being dumb. The example i gave was that my car had good steering it just got to a point where it dumped over in the front and thus making it feel twitchy. Widening my car made it feel smoother throughout the corner it doesnt dump over anymore. On high bite i feel the narrow vla position just doesnt work well for me, others im sure have been able to overcome it using other methods. I just simply tried to make the front of my car as close to a b5m as i could because at my track it is proven to work very well. Their isnt alot of tlr cars at my local track.
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Old 01-12-2016, 01:29 PM   #1541
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Originally Posted by onadcr74 View Post
"Shortening the front arm length will give you less steering, and the car will drive much smoother."

"The longer arm length will help slow the reactions of the car, making it feel less twitchy."

OK, which is it? I took these two quotes from just a few posts ago. Seems to me they are contradicting each other. Of course, I guess, depending on how you look at it, less steering and twitchy could be two totally separate things. A car could have less steering but still feel twitchy, but the way I'm reading them is that the one is saying that the shorter arm is smoother and the other is saying the longer arm is "less twitchy" or as I take it, smoother. So, which is it, shorter VLA smoother or longer VLA smoother? Or is it me being a dumb ass.......again.
I think the contradiction comes from trying to simplify the explanations of something that is in fact quite complex.

I look at it from the point of view of what affect on geometry does this change have, and what is an equivalent adjustment I can relate it to in order to better understand what is going on.

For the VLA option, I think of if this way: going from short to long VLA (without changing anything else) changes two basic things I already understand. 1) It is the same as going to a slightly softer front spring. This is because a longer front arm allows the wheel to apply more leverage to the shocks so you basically end up with a softer front spring. 2) It is similar to lengthening the camber link in its affect on roll center. A longer link allows the car to roll more.

So depending on the rest of your car's setup, softening the front spring and lengthening the front camber link may make the car twitchy, or it might calm the car down. It's very possible both excerpts from both manuals are correct when applied to the manual's respective cars.
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Old 01-12-2016, 01:46 PM   #1542
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2) It is similar to lengthening the camber link in its affect on roll center. A longer link allows the car to roll more..
I think you may have that backward. Lengthening the arm without changing the length of the camber length effectively shortens the link, yeah?

By the end of the XXX car's development we all ran long VLA with shocks in the outside of the arm and that resulted in the best steering we could get out of it (the car's weakness was corner speed). But both of those things should've made it steer less, based on their simple explanations.

Best option: try it. It's 4x screws.
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Old 01-12-2016, 02:11 PM   #1543
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No not being dumb. The example i gave was that my car had good steering it just got to a point where it dumped over in the front and thus making it feel twitchy. Widening my car made it feel smoother throughout the corner it doesnt dump over anymore. On high bite i feel the narrow vla position just doesnt work well for me, others im sure have been able to overcome it using other methods. I just simply tried to make the front of my car as close to a b5m as i could because at my track it is proven to work very well. Their isnt alot of tlr cars at my local track.
I'd be curious to see what your current setup looks like. Also, sent you a PM about revised hubs.
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Old 01-12-2016, 02:20 PM   #1544
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1.6 pistons front and rear kyosho gold front springs, kit rears. 32.5 front oil 30 rear. 21mm ride height. Widened front end everything else kit settings except rear inner camber link is set to lowest setting with no shim and short ball stud.
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Old 01-12-2016, 02:33 PM   #1545
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A few things I have noticed on the car that may help some. At minimum on high bite the longer vla is needed. I have gone to the extrememe and am running the inner hole on the carrier to the outer hole in the arm. THis brings the car to the maximum width (by roar) and just a tiny bit wider than the b5m. THis also increased the tie rod length which is what the car really needed. The car is now very easy to drive and the rear end just follows the front without introducing any push. I have a b5m lite and did a lot of coparrison between the 2 and the 3.0 is about 1/2 inch per side shorter on tie rod length in the front end. I would love to see some new carriers made to make the tie rods longer.
ROAR states max width at 250mm which according to google is equal to 9.84252 inches...TLR states that the width of the car is 9.8 inches...which with how the VLA adjustment is supposed to be used puts it right at legal. With how you have chosen to use VLA would put it wider than ROAR legal width.
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