Trinity SS DQ'd from JC Stock Nationals?
04-27-2015, 08:01 PM
#76
People have got to learn that you need to check your stuff before any race that does serious tech. I have three Reedy rotors sitting on my bench right now. All three are the exact same ROAR approved part number. Two are perfectly legal, one would get me DQ'ed in the blink of an eye because it is .2mm too long. In fact, it might also be .1mm too big in diameter depending on what you use to measure it with. Yes it's ROAR approved and all that junk but it will not be in my car for any race that techs motors.
04-27-2015, 08:13 PM
#77
It's not a ROAR race so what it really boils down to is a bunch of terrible planning, biased tech and bullshyt.
Think of the impact this is going to have on motor sales for a certain company. It went from the hottest motor to a zero now for competitions.
04-27-2015, 08:14 PM
#78
This is the rule from their page that I posted earlier.
Here are the new rules as it relates to the length of the stator from their website.
I underlined the continued inspection piece for your reference.
March 25, 2015
ROAR has made a change to the spec motor rules. We would like to make our racers aware of this change. All motors that have been submitted up to this point for approval have satisfied this specification, despite it's absence in the rules.
This is a change to the minimum length of the stator, to align ROAR rules with other major sanctioning bodies. There was no current minimum.
Original language (8.5.4.2): "The overall stator length parallel to the motor shaft shall be a maximum 21.0 mm"
New language: "The overall stator length parallel to the motor shaft shall be minimum length 19.3mm, maximum 21.0mm"
Please remember despite approval, all motors are subject to pre race inspection to ensure legality.
Here are the new rules as it relates to the length of the stator from their website.
I underlined the continued inspection piece for your reference.
March 25, 2015
ROAR has made a change to the spec motor rules. We would like to make our racers aware of this change. All motors that have been submitted up to this point for approval have satisfied this specification, despite it's absence in the rules.
This is a change to the minimum length of the stator, to align ROAR rules with other major sanctioning bodies. There was no current minimum.
Original language (8.5.4.2): "The overall stator length parallel to the motor shaft shall be a maximum 21.0 mm"
New language: "The overall stator length parallel to the motor shaft shall be minimum length 19.3mm, maximum 21.0mm"
Please remember despite approval, all motors are subject to pre race inspection to ensure legality.
Mason and Gene...
Where does tech start, and where does it end?
Must be a ROAR approved motor, that passes a ROAR tech inspection and rules - however the Reedy 3900 batteries all the team AE drivers were using wasn't ROAR approved...
To use the roar name, I assume they have to pay royalties, so instead they'll pick and choose from the rule book what they want to enforce.
04-27-2015, 08:28 PM
#79
People have got to learn that you need to check your stuff before any race that does serious tech. I have three Reedy rotors sitting on my bench right now. All three are the exact same ROAR approved part number. Two are perfectly legal, one would get me DQ'ed in the blink of an eye because it is .2mm too long. In fact, it might also be .1mm too big in diameter depending on what you use to measure it with. Yes it's ROAR approved and all that junk but it will not be in my car for any race that techs motors.
04-27-2015, 08:55 PM
#81
This entire scenario is suspect. And a lot of folks damning the motor manufacturer way too quick with too little evidence.
I'd like to see pictures of the DQ'd stators with at least two
Different calipers used to measure them. Just to cut through the speculation and conjecture.
I'd like to see pictures of the DQ'd stators with at least two
Different calipers used to measure them. Just to cut through the speculation and conjecture.
04-27-2015, 10:14 PM
#85
I understand that, but its value is diminished when non-sanctioned bodies can "market" themselves as using "ROAR Rules", and then interpret and enforce them as they please. Kinda defeats the purpose don't you think? You play backyard football, but don't call it NFL rules? If you tried to start your own league, you would not be able to say you use NFL rules? If you held your own football event and wanted to say your were using NFL rules, I bet the NFL would want you to use their officials. (as if they would even consider it) And that again roles back to my initial statement that the RC community would have to pay significantly more for such governance.
To some degree it is a failure of the community itself. If you value the effect the sanctioning body has on the industry, then you have to support it and not the non-sanction activities. That means not going to these self-proclaimed "national" & "regional" etc.... events that say they are teching using ROAR rules.
One other idea, (I kinda like this one, simple, and should be effective)
Add verbiage to the rule book that says that the "motor tech rules" cannot be used to DQ at a non-sanctioned event. And that approved means approved except in obvious cases of tampering. Manufacturing defects cannot be used to DQ at a non-sanctioned event.(even for pros).
To some degree it is a failure of the community itself. If you value the effect the sanctioning body has on the industry, then you have to support it and not the non-sanction activities. That means not going to these self-proclaimed "national" & "regional" etc.... events that say they are teching using ROAR rules.
One other idea, (I kinda like this one, simple, and should be effective)
Add verbiage to the rule book that says that the "motor tech rules" cannot be used to DQ at a non-sanctioned event. And that approved means approved except in obvious cases of tampering. Manufacturing defects cannot be used to DQ at a non-sanctioned event.(even for pros).
04-27-2015, 10:26 PM
#86
Mason and Gene...
Where does tech start, and where does it end?
Must be a ROAR approved motor, that passes a ROAR tech inspection and rules - however the Reedy 3900 batteries all the team AE drivers were using wasn't ROAR approved...
To use the roar name, I assume they have to pay royalties, so instead they'll pick and choose from the rule book what they want to enforce.
Where does tech start, and where does it end?
Must be a ROAR approved motor, that passes a ROAR tech inspection and rules - however the Reedy 3900 batteries all the team AE drivers were using wasn't ROAR approved...
To use the roar name, I assume they have to pay royalties, so instead they'll pick and choose from the rule book what they want to enforce.
If anything this event just proves the point that its time to slow down stock motor speeds to the point that joe serious steps up to mod.
04-27-2015, 10:30 PM
#87
This entire scenario is suspect. And a lot of folks damning the motor manufacturer way too quick with too little evidence.
I'd like to see pictures of the DQ'd stators with at least two
Different calipers used to measure them. Just to cut through the speculation and conjecture.
I'd like to see pictures of the DQ'd stators with at least two
Different calipers used to measure them. Just to cut through the speculation and conjecture.
04-28-2015, 04:04 AM
#88
I get what you are saying but a lot of people who run stock don't have the knowledge or tools to be checking their motors. It seems quite obvious the manufactures are unable to produce the same parts to exact specs each time. It would seem logical to have a tolerance on the specs +/- especially since most tools have a tolerance on them as well. I know I would be really mad if I bought a motor from my hobby shop and later got DQ'd by them because the motor was not legal. The rc racing industry is too small for all issues that come up, and if it continues it will shrink vs grow.
04-28-2015, 04:36 AM
#89
first for those who weren't around or aren't familiar with the D3.5 fiasco, let me set the trinity-haters and their revisionist history straight...
when ROAR tests a motor, they keep/archive the motor. trinity sent a D3.5 in for testing and it passed their test. some time later, ROAR purchased a new machine that they use to test the motors. with this new machine, the wire in the D3.5 was deemed to be too big. it WASN'T that a new batch of motors had new, bigger wire as has been intimated or even stated in this thread. ROAR confirmed that the wire in newly produced motors was the same wire that was in the original motors sent to ROAR. this is a simplified version of the story and obviously there's a bit more to it (like ROARS ambiguous rule stating the wire has to be 20AWG OR .831mm or whatever it was. how can it be either or?). of course trinity "forced a favorable settlement". they, along with their customers, got screwed!
the SS obviously passed ROAR's testing. so now during tech at "the nationals", they all of a sudden aren't passing? and not only do they not pass them, they do it after quals and before the main? this doesn't raise red flags? and we're not talking about the "team drivers" motors where one could surmise they're getting the best of the best and thus motors closer to or right at the passable limits. these are off the shelf motors that weren't passing. I'm willing to wait and hear more about this situation before completely passing judgment, but at the very least, this situation seems fishy.
when ROAR tests a motor, they keep/archive the motor. trinity sent a D3.5 in for testing and it passed their test. some time later, ROAR purchased a new machine that they use to test the motors. with this new machine, the wire in the D3.5 was deemed to be too big. it WASN'T that a new batch of motors had new, bigger wire as has been intimated or even stated in this thread. ROAR confirmed that the wire in newly produced motors was the same wire that was in the original motors sent to ROAR. this is a simplified version of the story and obviously there's a bit more to it (like ROARS ambiguous rule stating the wire has to be 20AWG OR .831mm or whatever it was. how can it be either or?). of course trinity "forced a favorable settlement". they, along with their customers, got screwed!
the SS obviously passed ROAR's testing. so now during tech at "the nationals", they all of a sudden aren't passing? and not only do they not pass them, they do it after quals and before the main? this doesn't raise red flags? and we're not talking about the "team drivers" motors where one could surmise they're getting the best of the best and thus motors closer to or right at the passable limits. these are off the shelf motors that weren't passing. I'm willing to wait and hear more about this situation before completely passing judgment, but at the very least, this situation seems fishy.
04-28-2015, 04:48 AM
#90
Agreed. The maximum number is the tolerance. There is plenty of tolerance inside/under whatever that number is.