New isnt always better...when will chassis peak?
03-12-2015, 07:55 PM
#31
Tech Regular
I think chassis tech is "good enough" (until we get those electronic shocks)... but powertrain software still has lots of room to grow.
Gyros have been around for years, and Spektrum is bringing that tech to the masses with AVC. I'd like to see things go one step further: have small brushless outrunner motors installed in pairs where the front and rear diffs sit now (where their wiring can be protected down the center of the car, and they don't add to unsprung mass like putting motors in the wheel hubs). Get rid of the center driveline in 4wd cars, and the single large motor.
Left/right and front/rear diff action becomes all electronic: something you can tune in the ESC. You'd effectively get "traction control" for free: with the ESC sensing the RPM of each motor relative to throttle and steering position. There's already cheap electrics that can precisely control 4 small motors: any $50+ quadrotor already has the basics - adapt it to surface use and away you go!
ROAR approved? Heck no!
But I bet a 1/8th race buggy could sing with a baby 380 precisely spinning each wheel. Maybe "blinky" will just mean you have the gyro/AVC bits disabled, but all the electronic throttle/brake/diff tuning options are still active? Sign me up!
Gyros have been around for years, and Spektrum is bringing that tech to the masses with AVC. I'd like to see things go one step further: have small brushless outrunner motors installed in pairs where the front and rear diffs sit now (where their wiring can be protected down the center of the car, and they don't add to unsprung mass like putting motors in the wheel hubs). Get rid of the center driveline in 4wd cars, and the single large motor.
Left/right and front/rear diff action becomes all electronic: something you can tune in the ESC. You'd effectively get "traction control" for free: with the ESC sensing the RPM of each motor relative to throttle and steering position. There's already cheap electrics that can precisely control 4 small motors: any $50+ quadrotor already has the basics - adapt it to surface use and away you go!
ROAR approved? Heck no!
But I bet a 1/8th race buggy could sing with a baby 380 precisely spinning each wheel. Maybe "blinky" will just mean you have the gyro/AVC bits disabled, but all the electronic throttle/brake/diff tuning options are still active? Sign me up!
03-12-2015, 08:07 PM
#32
I just want disk brakes like this: http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...nt-brakes.html 1/5 scales have had them for a long time, but It would be cool to see them on 1/10 cars!
03-12-2015, 08:10 PM
#33
R/C cars need to stay simple and relatively inexpensive in order to sustain popularity. Cheap, reliable, good performance and fun. "Technological advancements" are what killed off TC. Sure there are the die hard tech geeks who enjoy the $1K chassis of the month club; but VTA, Mini's and F1 are popular for a reason.
Cheap, reliable, good performance and fun.
ROAR does it right by keeping it cheap and fun. That is why Lipo, brushless and 2.4ghz were such great leaps forward. Those advancements made it cheaper and easier to have fun, for longer periods.
As far as 1/10th offroad, chassis geometry has been peaked out for about 10 years. In some ways the "latest mfg process" style cars have regressed IMO. Of course, they can be refined, like AE going to metric hardware on the B5 generation.
Cheap, reliable, good performance and fun.
ROAR does it right by keeping it cheap and fun. That is why Lipo, brushless and 2.4ghz were such great leaps forward. Those advancements made it cheaper and easier to have fun, for longer periods.
As far as 1/10th offroad, chassis geometry has been peaked out for about 10 years. In some ways the "latest mfg process" style cars have regressed IMO. Of course, they can be refined, like AE going to metric hardware on the B5 generation.
03-12-2015, 08:22 PM
#34
Overall there has been tremendous innovation in this hobby in the past 20 years.
2.4ghz - you no longer need to wait for someone's frequency to run your car or bring six sets with you.
Brushless motors - motors that last a whole season or longer if you take care of them. And even then, you can run them as practice motors.
Lipo batteries - batteries that last much longer than previous chemistry batteries, and relative to their precursors cost much less. If you ran competitively 10 years ago, you were spending $120 or more in today's money each for 3-4 race packs to be competitive. Now you buy two $60 shorties that will last much longer.
Cars overall are much stronger.
So your original question - have chassis peaked?
It's dependent on class, but I don't think so.
Look at the big paradigm switch recently from front motor to mid motor for 2wd buggy. Is the B5m/SerpMM/TLR 22 2.0/ TC 02Cevo/RB6/B-Max MR version 3 (4?)/ YZ-2, the ultimate in mid motor tuneability in performance?
No, because in part this is a paradigm shift.
They (and others) are all great, but all could probably use something here or there.
AE is coming out with a lightened car. TLR is slowly working on a 22 3.0. RB 7 is in the works and word is it will be more like AE with different parts for FM and MM, with the focus being MM.
Will they be better than their precursors? Yes. Will you have to have one to win? Maybe not.
You could run a b4.2 or b44.2 and still win most races, but in reality the b5 is better (not so sure about the b44.3 to be honest).
Changes and improvements will be more incremental in feeling until the next paradigm shift if any.
2.4ghz - you no longer need to wait for someone's frequency to run your car or bring six sets with you.
Brushless motors - motors that last a whole season or longer if you take care of them. And even then, you can run them as practice motors.
Lipo batteries - batteries that last much longer than previous chemistry batteries, and relative to their precursors cost much less. If you ran competitively 10 years ago, you were spending $120 or more in today's money each for 3-4 race packs to be competitive. Now you buy two $60 shorties that will last much longer.
Cars overall are much stronger.
So your original question - have chassis peaked?
It's dependent on class, but I don't think so.
Look at the big paradigm switch recently from front motor to mid motor for 2wd buggy. Is the B5m/SerpMM/TLR 22 2.0/ TC 02Cevo/RB6/B-Max MR version 3 (4?)/ YZ-2, the ultimate in mid motor tuneability in performance?
No, because in part this is a paradigm shift.
They (and others) are all great, but all could probably use something here or there.
AE is coming out with a lightened car. TLR is slowly working on a 22 3.0. RB 7 is in the works and word is it will be more like AE with different parts for FM and MM, with the focus being MM.
Will they be better than their precursors? Yes. Will you have to have one to win? Maybe not.
You could run a b4.2 or b44.2 and still win most races, but in reality the b5 is better (not so sure about the b44.3 to be honest).
Changes and improvements will be more incremental in feeling until the next paradigm shift if any.
03-12-2015, 10:53 PM
#35
I think chassis tech is "good enough" (until we get those electronic shocks)... but powertrain software still has lots of room to grow.
Gyros have been around for years, and Spektrum is bringing that tech to the masses with AVC. I'd like to see things go one step further: have small brushless outrunner motors installed in pairs where the front and rear diffs sit now (where their wiring can be protected down the center of the car, and they don't add to unsprung mass like putting motors in the wheel hubs). Get rid of the center driveline in 4wd cars, and the single large motor.
Left/right and front/rear diff action becomes all electronic: something you can tune in the ESC. You'd effectively get "traction control" for free: with the ESC sensing the RPM of each motor relative to throttle and steering position. There's already cheap electrics that can precisely control 4 small motors: any $50+ quadrotor already has the basics - adapt it to surface use and away you go!
ROAR approved? Heck no! But I bet a 1/8th race buggy could sing with a baby 380 precisely spinning each wheel. Maybe "blinky" will just mean you have the gyro/AVC bits disabled, but all the electronic throttle/brake/diff tuning options are still active? Sign me up!
Gyros have been around for years, and Spektrum is bringing that tech to the masses with AVC. I'd like to see things go one step further: have small brushless outrunner motors installed in pairs where the front and rear diffs sit now (where their wiring can be protected down the center of the car, and they don't add to unsprung mass like putting motors in the wheel hubs). Get rid of the center driveline in 4wd cars, and the single large motor.
Left/right and front/rear diff action becomes all electronic: something you can tune in the ESC. You'd effectively get "traction control" for free: with the ESC sensing the RPM of each motor relative to throttle and steering position. There's already cheap electrics that can precisely control 4 small motors: any $50+ quadrotor already has the basics - adapt it to surface use and away you go!
ROAR approved? Heck no!
But I bet a 1/8th race buggy could sing with a baby 380 precisely spinning each wheel. Maybe "blinky" will just mean you have the gyro/AVC bits disabled, but all the electronic throttle/brake/diff tuning options are still active? Sign me up!
03-13-2015, 05:43 AM
#36
Tech Initiate
iTrader: (7)
After reading this whole thread i realized there is alot of Vital members over here in the RC world... Interesting
I think the biggest innovations in the RC world are really coming in the form of weight distribution and durability other than that im sure its getting somewhat maxed out. however there isnt nearly enough stuff for the engineers to mess with on these cars to take it to the next level and keep the cost realistic.
I think the biggest innovations in the RC world are really coming in the form of weight distribution and durability other than that im sure its getting somewhat maxed out. however there isnt nearly enough stuff for the engineers to mess with on these cars to take it to the next level and keep the cost realistic.
03-13-2015, 06:00 AM
#37
The idea isn't to emulate a 3 diff setup. The idea is to get something better than what you get with a 3 diff setup. A 3 diff setup doesn't have the ability to do torque vectoring. Wheel slip can be detected and corrected at each wheel. The system would be far superior to a 3 diff system. It would also be far more expensive...
03-13-2015, 06:20 AM
#38
Chassis are already complex enough to leave most people were I live without a clue of how to set it up. I have a degree in mechanics and teach it and I spend all year long reading forums, making excels calculations and still discover things every week on posts like fredswain's.
I still don't know how to fully set up my car but I'm getting closer every week, and this has been going on for years (This aspect of knowledge is my favorite in this hobby).
I'll sound pretty arrogant but anyway I can tell you that NOBODY at my local track club knows how to setup the chassis. At the best they either copy the setup of a champion (I'll admit that's what I used to do when I got into the hobby) or they fiddle with it until they, by cheer luck, get something that's less worst than it was.
Most the time guys just change car brand until they have the right setup "out of the box" instead of actually working the setup. Most the time I'm like "how much anti-squat do you have?" and I can literally quote them "antiwhat ? Don't know what it is , don't care". I'm not criticizing them as they have perfect right to approach this hobby as they wish. But it's just to say that to me chassis are complex enough as it is to have a LOT of people not getting the potential of them as it is.
It's another debate but they keep being on the fence with the new MM3 vs MM4 polava or tapered pistons and as I said to one of my mates to stop bothering with these "gadget" and concentrate on your primary setup that's already hard as it is without adding voodooism.
I still don't know how to fully set up my car but I'm getting closer every week, and this has been going on for years (This aspect of knowledge is my favorite in this hobby).
I'll sound pretty arrogant but anyway I can tell you that NOBODY at my local track club knows how to setup the chassis. At the best they either copy the setup of a champion (I'll admit that's what I used to do when I got into the hobby) or they fiddle with it until they, by cheer luck, get something that's less worst than it was.
Most the time guys just change car brand until they have the right setup "out of the box" instead of actually working the setup. Most the time I'm like "how much anti-squat do you have?" and I can literally quote them "antiwhat ? Don't know what it is , don't care". I'm not criticizing them as they have perfect right to approach this hobby as they wish. But it's just to say that to me chassis are complex enough as it is to have a LOT of people not getting the potential of them as it is.
It's another debate but they keep being on the fence with the new MM3 vs MM4 polava or tapered pistons and as I said to one of my mates to stop bothering with these "gadget" and concentrate on your primary setup that's already hard as it is without adding voodooism.
03-13-2015, 07:04 AM
#39
to the OP.....
It comes down to price point. RC cars have always been a affordable hobby. If somehow the perception changed so that high end cars and parts could be made and sold (price point 5x++ what it is now) then you could see some better tech come into play.
Think about it a bit. If there money is to be made by making super efficient and powerful electric motors then people would make them. No incentive or no market then they won't be made. This example can be used for alot of other parts of RC.
RC seems to be stuck at the price points of today so I don't see any groundbreaking tech to come about.
It comes down to price point. RC cars have always been a affordable hobby. If somehow the perception changed so that high end cars and parts could be made and sold (price point 5x++ what it is now) then you could see some better tech come into play.
Think about it a bit. If there money is to be made by making super efficient and powerful electric motors then people would make them. No incentive or no market then they won't be made. This example can be used for alot of other parts of RC.
RC seems to be stuck at the price points of today so I don't see any groundbreaking tech to come about.
03-13-2015, 07:10 AM
#40
Tech Rookie
Chassis are already complex enough to leave most people were I live without a clue of how to set it up. I have a degree in mechanics and teach it and I spend all year long reading forums, making excels calculations and still discover things every week on posts like fredswain's.
I still don't know how to fully set up my car but I'm getting closer every week, and this has been going on for years (This aspect of knowledge is my favorite in this hobby).
I'll sound pretty arrogant but anyway I can tell you that NOBODY at my local track club knows how to setup the chassis. At the best they either copy the setup of a champion (I'll admit that's what I used to do when I got into the hobby) or they fiddle with it until they, by cheer luck, get something that's less worst than it was.
Most the time guys just change car brand until they have the right setup "out of the box" instead of actually working the setup. Most the time I'm like "how much anti-squat do you have?" and I can literally quote them "antiwhat ? Don't know what it is , don't care". I'm not criticizing them as they have perfect right to approach this hobby as they wish. But it's just to say that to me chassis are complex enough as it is to have a LOT of people not getting the potential of them as it is.
It's another debate but they keep being on the fence with the new MM3 vs MM4 polava or tapered pistons and as I said to one of my mates to stop bothering with these "gadget" and concentrate on your primary setup that's already hard as it is without adding voodooism.
I still don't know how to fully set up my car but I'm getting closer every week, and this has been going on for years (This aspect of knowledge is my favorite in this hobby).
I'll sound pretty arrogant but anyway I can tell you that NOBODY at my local track club knows how to setup the chassis. At the best they either copy the setup of a champion (I'll admit that's what I used to do when I got into the hobby) or they fiddle with it until they, by cheer luck, get something that's less worst than it was.
Most the time guys just change car brand until they have the right setup "out of the box" instead of actually working the setup. Most the time I'm like "how much anti-squat do you have?" and I can literally quote them "antiwhat ? Don't know what it is , don't care". I'm not criticizing them as they have perfect right to approach this hobby as they wish. But it's just to say that to me chassis are complex enough as it is to have a LOT of people not getting the potential of them as it is.
It's another debate but they keep being on the fence with the new MM3 vs MM4 polava or tapered pistons and as I said to one of my mates to stop bothering with these "gadget" and concentrate on your primary setup that's already hard as it is without adding voodooism.
03-13-2015, 07:25 AM
#41
The idea isn't to emulate a 3 diff setup. The idea is to get something better than what you get with a 3 diff setup. A 3 diff setup doesn't have the ability to do torque vectoring. Wheel slip can be detected and corrected at each wheel. The system would be far superior to a 3 diff system. It would also be far more expensive...
03-13-2015, 07:46 AM
#42
Anybody who says theres no innovation hasn't seen or driven an awsomatix tc. it looks and handles like no other touring car so much that people have tried to have it banned. sadly its very expensive and hard to get which is no good in RC. Also I think you guys have missed a major point RC is geared towards kids and racing is not the main money maker. Yes racing is a major selling tool but at the end of the day the kid and "basher" market is where the money is which is why durability has gone up and innovation has kind of stayed the same. This is why traxxas is the force they are their cars share a large majority of parts are inexpensive and durable and are marketed relentlessly at things kids like(mx,monsterjam,NHRA, etc) AE and Losi have jumped on the shortcourse and drift bandwagons also. Racing may be us older guys focus but lets face it 90% of RC cars sold no matter the brand or type NEVER see a race track,a tuning session or even maintenance unless something breaks. Kids want to go fast jump high and have fun so as long as they are the main market innovation will lean towards durability and low cost not all out performance.
03-13-2015, 07:47 AM
#43
+1 This is so true! R/C Drivers gobble this up. I lost count how many times I have seen them ask if an "obsolete" car is still "competitive". Usually the car is about 6 months old.
Then again, without new sales these R/C companies would probably go under very quick. So, keep buying guys.
Then again, without new sales these R/C companies would probably go under very quick. So, keep buying guys.
03-13-2015, 08:03 AM
#44
I just want disk brakes like this: http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric...nt-brakes.html 1/5 scales have had them for a long time, but It would be cool to see them on 1/10 cars!
Once this change happens, chassis's will need to change.
Development never ends, especially when speeds come up. 17.5's today are as fast as the mid level modifieds of the old days, and today's modifieds are BLISTERING fast.
The development in durability has also sky rocketed.
03-13-2015, 08:55 AM
#45
I don't see a need for front brakes in 1/10. The cars are so light and handle so quickly that there are very few drivers that could utilize them effectively. A test for this is the adjustable one-way on the XX-4 and 22-4 (effectively a brake-bias adjuster). I don't hear a lot of talk about that adjustment being critical.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
