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Old 05-19-2015, 10:04 PM   #13861
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Why adjust the EPA? Why not the DR and keep the same amount of trigger throw?
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Old 05-20-2015, 02:04 AM   #13862
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Why adjust the EPA? Why not the DR and keep the same amount of trigger throw?
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Old 05-20-2015, 03:20 AM   #13863
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OK so I called up Pro-Line yesterday for asking about the Blue Closed cell inserts if they are included in the tires across the board as my Electrons set did have them. I wondered if tires at the Hobby Shops were old stock or something with the standard inserts.

So for outdoor I wanted to pick up 4 Rib fronts + Hole Shot fronts and the Hole Shot rears. We discussed the scenarios on why you still use the big I hate to stuff into the tire foams and trimming work.

The guy felt I should just use the foams with the tire as the tire could wear out fast with the molded inserts. I get that the foams is like tire pressure. But I feel there should be molded freaking medium inserts now with all tires.

Anyways for the fronts I decided to also put on the order the closed cell molded inserts, I am not interested in trimming a foam donut that is like 3 times as wide to fit into a little narrow front tire.



The track is freshly built with more clay content than last year and will be packed with some loose dust on there I suppose. Tires they recommend are Blockades, Hole Shots, BowTies for the rears below on there page below:

http://www.sidsraceway.ca/?page_id=4335


I would like to put molded inserts all the time in there but for the rears I can for now put in the stock foams.

Anything bad with this setup? If there is questions just ask and I will reply.

I am also racing 4WD and bought molded inserts for the front only for now.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:51 AM   #13864
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I don't know if it holds true with the newer speed controls and brushless motors but it use to cause excessive heat running a speedo turned down on the transmitter. The voltage had to go somewhere and that was heat. So i was told....
it does not add heat. it limits your max throttle. it just slows down the top speed.


I have not tried D/R in a long time. I think it removes breaking also. You could always play with it and see how it feels.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:53 AM   #13865
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I don't know if it holds true with the newer speed controls and brushless motors but it use to cause excessive heat running a speedo turned down on the transmitter. The voltage had to go somewhere and that was heat. So i was told....
In my 4WD and stadium truck I'm running 10.5 motors, which are a bit fast for my skill level. I use a combination of current limiting, which I believe is called punch in other brands, and endpoint adjustment. After a full race my motor and ESC temps are well under Tekin guidelines. And I'm only a couple seconds per lap off the really fast guys at our track.

In my Airtronics radios, adjusting the endpoint down to 85, after I calibrated at 100, allows me to use my full trigger range but at full trigger pull the ESC only sees 85 percent throttle.

-Chris
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Old 05-20-2015, 06:00 AM   #13866
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Why adjust the EPA? Why not the DR and keep the same amount of trigger throw?
This must be radio brand specific. On my Airtronics MT-4S and M12, adjusting the throttle EPA down allows you to use the full trigger range but send less than 100 percent throttle to the ESC.

I just verified that by starting up VRC Pro and looking at the controller setup screen. I was already calibrated with my radio endpoint at 100. I backed the endpoint on my radio down to 70 and it was easy to see that VRC only saw 70 percent throttle when I had the trigger squeezed all the way.

And it definitely used my entire range of trigger movement to get from 0 - 70 percent throttle.

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Old 05-20-2015, 06:03 AM   #13867
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If Bizarre wants to practice to his hearts content, then throttling back the 7.5 could work.

If he wants to race, I believe ROAR rules dictate no motor hotter than a 13.5 in novice class.

I still recommend spending the $30 for a 17.5. It doesn't seem his budget it's too far out of reach to make that move. You're wasting your time with that 7.5.
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Old 05-20-2015, 07:44 AM   #13868
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Originally Posted by 190mph View Post
OK so I called up Pro-Line yesterday for asking about the Blue Closed cell inserts if they are included in the tires across the board as my Electrons set did have them. I wondered if tires at the Hobby Shops were old stock or something with the standard inserts.

So for outdoor I wanted to pick up 4 Rib fronts + Hole Shot fronts and the Hole Shot rears. We discussed the scenarios on why you still use the big I hate to stuff into the tire foams and trimming work.

The guy felt I should just use the foams with the tire as the tire could wear out fast with the molded inserts. I get that the foams is like tire pressure. But I feel there should be molded freaking medium inserts now with all tires.

Anyways for the fronts I decided to also put on the order the closed cell molded inserts, I am not interested in trimming a foam donut that is like 3 times as wide to fit into a little narrow front tire.



The track is freshly built with more clay content than last year and will be packed with some loose dust on there I suppose. Tires they recommend are Blockades, Hole Shots, BowTies for the rears below on there page below:

http://www.sidsraceway.ca/?page_id=4335


I would like to put molded inserts all the time in there but for the rears I can for now put in the stock foams.

Anything bad with this setup? If there is questions just ask and I will reply.

I am also racing 4WD and bought molded inserts for the front only for now.
Hi 190mph
Having built the track you are talking about (Sids), I think I might be in the best position to answer your questions.

First of all, we have tested many different tread patterns and compounds to give you guys a good tire recommendation. I would say first thing in the morning when the track is still slightly moist and the track is pristine and smooth, I would recommend holeshots or impacts. Blockades will work too, but the smaller pin would be more ideal early on. As the day progresses, the track will get increasingly more rutted as the surface is still new and some areas have not been packed that well or haven't settled in, so using a bigger pin tire like the blockade is more ideal. Holeshots and impacts don't have the tread depth when certain areas break apart. Our track is clay based, and it starts to break in chunks, so you get tons of small clay pebbles outside the racing line. Thus if we had to recommend the best overall tire, I would still say it would be M3 soft blockades. As for inserts. We used aka red close cells. They seem pretty consistent and the treads last a long time vs the smaller pin tires.
Open cell works better and will give you more grip and better on the ruts. However, the open cells get softer over time and with more use, so after a while its not so great on the higher speed sections of the track where as the closed cell is better.
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:51 AM   #13869
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I personally wouldn't use EPA.

EPA will only limit how much power the ESC gets on the top end. It's just like limiting the throw of your steering servo. The throw is still there. It's just dialed back. EPA only has an effect at the top end of the power curve. If im not mistaken the issue is the power coming on too strong down low (causing over steer).

I dont see how an EPA limit will help in the bottom end of the throttle curve(where the problem is) D/R is a option, but really that's why ESC's have sooooo many adjustments.

For example on my Tekin RSX.. To help with power delivery.

I could limit the amount of power down low with using the limiter function. Can make the throttle curve non-linear and softer using Throttle profiles(very smiler to D/R). Take away "punch" with Throttle Minimums.

Make the neutral range wider so it's not so sensitive at the trigger.

Im sure any brand of a mid range ESC has these adjustments. Get in there and learn what each function does and play around with it..and test for feel/lap time.

You "could" take that 7.5 and make it as calm as a Hindu cow with proper esc settings, but the best road might be just pick up a 17.5 until you get the rust off.
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:16 AM   #13870
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I personally wouldn't use EPA.

EPA will only limit how much power the ESC gets on the top end. It's just like limiting the throw of your steering servo. The throw is still there. It's just dialed back. EPA only has an effect at the top end of the power curve. If im not mistaken the issue is the power coming on too strong down low (causing over steer).

I dont see how an EPA limit will help in the bottom end of the throttle curve(where the problem is) D/R is a option, but really that's why ESC's have sooooo many adjustments.

For example on my Tekin RSX.. To help with power delivery.

I could limit the amount of power down low with using the limiter function. Can make the throttle curve non-linear and softer using Throttle profiles(very smiler to D/R). Take away "punch" with Throttle Minimums.

Make the neutral range wider so it's not so sensitive at the trigger.

Im sure any brand of a mid range ESC has these adjustments. Get in there and learn what each function does and play around with it..and test for feel/lap time.

You "could" take that 7.5 and make it as calm as a Hindu cow with proper esc settings, but the best road might be just pick up a 17.5 until you get the rust off.
Thanks, the adjustments I made at the weekend was still to keep the top end power but use a non linear throttle curve to smooth early delivery, provide solid mid range for 80% of the circuit then punch the last on the throttle range for the straight once I had entered it. After making those adjustments it was a lot smoother outside in testing.

I think I will get a Reedy 17.5 as its only $80 which will do me for several months and then go back to the 7.5 perhaps later in the year. As I'll mail order I won't receive it in time for this weekend so ill give the 7.5 another go with the adjustments already made. Any track time is better than none.

With the 17.5 though I'll need to update the 10.1 firmware to go to stock mode, should I choose to race, for practice I wont need it. I might get the programming box anyway as it will make for easier setting adjustment of the ESC on the fly.

As I have read, many ways to get the desired end result but the car will feel different to each of the ways to do it.

I spent most of yesterday evening tuning the diff and the nova slipper clutch now its had some running in.
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:35 AM   #13871
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JBRL @ sdrc this friday fyi. novice class at sdrc is bring what you have....no restrictions per motor or esc settings.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:39 PM   #13872
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Originally Posted by MasiisaM View Post
I personally wouldn't use EPA.

EPA will only limit how much power the ESC gets on the top end. It's just like limiting the throw of your steering servo. The throw is still there. It's just dialed back. EPA only has an effect at the top end of the power curve. If im not mistaken the issue is the power coming on too strong down low (causing over steer).

I dont see how an EPA limit will help in the bottom end of the throttle curve(where the problem is) D/R is a option, but really that's why ESC's have sooooo many adjustments.

For example on my Tekin RSX.. To help with power delivery.

I could limit the amount of power down low with using the limiter function. Can make the throttle curve non-linear and softer using Throttle profiles(very smiler to D/R). Take away "punch" with Throttle Minimums.

Make the neutral range wider so it's not so sensitive at the trigger.

Im sure any brand of a mid range ESC has these adjustments. Get in there and learn what each function does and play around with it..and test for feel/lap time.

You "could" take that 7.5 and make it as calm as a Hindu cow with proper esc settings, but the best road might be just pick up a 17.5 until you get the rust off.
I use a combination of current limit and EPA with my Tekin RSX and RS. The advantage of EPA is mostly to let you use the full range of motion you have in your trigger when you can't use all the speed your motor provides. Let's say your buggy will run 40MPH at full throttle, but there isn't anywhere on your track where you want to go more than 35MPH. With the EPA backed down you can make your top speed 35MPH with the trigger fully pulled. Then you have better control of the speeds in between 0 and 35.

Dual rates could do the same thing, possibly depending on your radio.

I don't think throttle curves are anything like dual rates. A throttle curve can be used to give you finer control at slower speeds but the trade off is you get less control at higher speeds. And you still can't use your full trigger if you only want to go 35MPH.

Tekin throttle minimum is just used to set what it takes to barely get your car moving. So you don't waste that valuable trigger travel we're talking about before you car even starts to roll. Reducing neutral width helps with that too.

I thought "punch" in other brands was the equivalent of current limiting in a Tekin. Maybe I'm wrong about that though. I don't own an ESC from any other brand.

-Chris
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:14 PM   #13873
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I am not sure what slipper you are using, but make sure it is set correctly also. that can help sometimes. I dislike throttle curves. to each their own. 10 ways to skin the cat.
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:57 PM   #13874
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I use a combination of current limit and EPA with my Tekin RSX and RS. The advantage of EPA is mostly to let you use the full range of motion you have in your trigger when you can't use all the speed your motor provides. Let's say your buggy will run 40MPH at full throttle, but there isn't anywhere on your track where you want to go more than 35MPH. With the EPA backed down you can make your top speed 35MPH with the trigger fully pulled. Then you have better control of the speeds in between 0 and 35.

That just seems weird..Not saying it's not true. After you calibrate the ESC and its set...you back off the EPA and it gives you more resolution? I question it only because it doesn't work that way with your steering. It just limits the throw in relation to the the wheel on the TX. That's all EPA does.

I could be way wrong.



Dual rates could do the same thing, possibly depending on your radio.

I don't think throttle curves are anything like dual rates. A throttle curve can be used to give you finer control at slower speeds but the trade off is you get less control at higher speeds. And you still can't use your full trigger if you only want to go 35MPH.

The throttle curve adjustment is there for how the user wants the power band to come on. As you can see from the below.. the liner curve(default)runs equal throughout the range. With going to more of a mild curve(1 or 2) you get less response/power early but the end of the power band is the same




Tekin throttle minimum is just used to set what it takes to barely get your car moving. So you don't waste that valuable trigger travel we're talking about before you car even starts to roll. Reducing neutral width helps with that too.

Ohh that's for sure true..The higher the value the stronger the power is from "stop to going". I think of it as holding the e-brake down in your car and letting go.

I thought "punch" in other brands was the equivalent of current limiting in a Tekin. Maybe I'm wrong about that though. I don't own an ESC from any other brand.

-Chris
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Old 05-20-2015, 02:39 PM   #13875
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.

That just seems weird..Not saying it's not true. After you calibrate the ESC and its set...you back off the EPA and it gives you more resolution? I question it only because it doesn't work that way with your steering. It just limits the throw in relation to the the wheel on the TX. That's all EPA does.

I could be way wrong.
Your radio may work differently than mine. It's not about resolution at the receiver/ESC level. It's about the physical movement of the trigger on your transmitter. Turning my throttle endpoint down to 80, or whatever, after calibrating makes it so that fully pulling the trigger only sends 80 percent throttle to the receiver/ESC.

My steering works the same. Calibrate at 100, then set the EPA down to get the amount of actual steering I want, at the front wheels, when my transmitter wheel is turned fully either way.

The curve picture you posted shows exactly what I stated. At the beginning of your trigger pull, moving the trigger X percent changes the speed of the motor by a small amount. But you don't get that for free. If the first 50 percent of your physical trigger movement only controls the first 30 percent of the throttle signal to your motor, the remaining 50 percent of your physical trigger pull has to control the other 70 percent of the throttle signal. So you are gaining lower speed throttle control/resolution by sacrificing higher speed throttle control/resolution.

You are not using minimum throttle the way Tekin intends. Not that there is anything wrong with that if it works for you. What they tell you to do is increase minimum throttle one notch at a time until barely moving your trigger makes your car barely start to move. Then you are done setting it.

-Chris
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