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Old 05-18-2015, 09:06 PM   #13816
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Originally Posted by Micah123 View Post
Next time at the track, ask someone at the front desk to point out several regulars who can check your set up. Stock out of the box should run fine with the correct tires. My guess is that tires are causing your problems. I race on Wed nites and get to the track shortly after opening. Feel free to swing by and introduce yourself and I will check out your setup.

Good luck,

Fred Murray
Thanks Fred, think tires are okay as they are JConcepts barcodes. I did notice a huge improvement from all the dial backs I did with the speeds already, just need to test it out on track during a quiet period.

However, would love to take up the offer so will try and head over Wednesday night to say hi!
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:19 PM   #13817
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I know, lengthy post but thought I would post it raw for the benefit of others who might learn.

Noted on the boost. I chose to go out of the box on everything and dial it back, in hindsight I should have dialled right back in the first place .

Good idea on the adds, will consider just that.




The tires are actually JConcepts barcodes, green/golds so I think they should be okay, definitely power and boosting which I did already touch on but can scale further back for sure.



Good points on the steering too, missed reducing that speed too. As I build the local track relationships up I'll be sure to grab an A-Main driver, if they will even give me the time of day

Its great to be back after the absence and trying to enjoy the love I had for the hobby again!

Thanks for all the feedback peeps, it helps greatly, I exposed myself with the long post but you need to take the criticism and the feedback constructively :-).

Gold dirt webs all the way around for your buggy. Gold is JC's clay compound, green is not optimal for sdrc.
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Old 05-18-2015, 09:55 PM   #13818
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So, it was with trepidation I hit the local SDRC track with my freshly built RC10B5M with the usual smattering of hop ups. Having not raced for 20 years I expected a learning curve on both the clay and 2wd compared to indoor/outdoor 4wd in the old Nimh brushed days.

Safe to say I was all over the place, car didn’t handle great from out of the box configuration at least. I left after a few practice sessions a little despondent and scratching my head. Maybe I should have stayed in the 4wd category where the balance is more predictable and controllable.

Anyway, I’m the sort of person to never give up and prefer to debrief myself and break down all the issues I had to take another stab at it again in a couple of weeks time. Here is what I broke down and what I have attempted to do to solve this and make the car more drivable and predictable.

What I experienced;
  • Car was very tail happy in the corners making for difficult line ups for jumps.
  • Car was skittish under acceleration meaning I was trying to control a snaking car down the straights.
  • Off track the car had lots of clay in the tread and it was barely visible.

What I interpret;
  • The tire tread full of clay is likely a result of too much power through the tires making it wheel spin under acceleration and filling tread with clay.
  • The tail happy in corners was likely a result of the now slick tires based on loss of grip and when accelerating around a corner this spinning the car around. Same for skittish in a straight line with each wheel getting different levels of grip.

Setup changes I made;
  • Loosened the Nova Slipper clutch to release the tires from wheel spinning as much.
  • Double checking Differential settings after initial runs.
  • Altered the Orion ESC to;
  • Reduce the turbo acceleration from 7 to 4, again lessening the rapid acceleration to ensure grip was more likely in early range.
  • Implement drag force braking at 10%. Means in neutral the car would naturally slow itself rather than using the more forceful brake action of transmitter.
  • Altered the transmitter to;
  • Increase acceleration range to full movement of trigger instead of full range in 75%. Allows for smoother acceleration.
  • Add a throttle profile to deliver smoother acceleration over 80% of the range and deliver the final 40% in the last 20% of movement. Means that the tires get that little more help to grip before putting the power down.
  • Introduced a throttle curve profile rather than linear.

Things to still do;
  • Get some tire sauce, heavy to medium grade to improve direct grip.

After making the changes and testing outside on concrete I noticed a huge improvement to drivability. I’m not normally a fan of a large number of changes in one go but I needed drastic action.

Any thoughts? Totally wrong approach? I should hang up my transmitter and go kite flying instead?

Happy for any more helpful tips you guys might have.

On a positive note, my gearing was good and all temperatures were low after runs.

Thanks.
I also just returned to RC racing after a 12 year layoff myself in December. The rust come off quickly, don't get discourage, enjoy the ride, Kites are dumb....

Most of the skittishness and tail happiness is probably the result of brand new tires. Need to get several runs on them to "break in". A lot of racers will sand down the clay compound tires to 1/2 or 1/3 their original tread height to get maximum grip. I just break them in naturally, but I race on medium bite Ohio tracks where clay compound doesn't work and the tracks aren't nearly as smooth or high bite as the West Coast tracks. Its all M4, Green, Black, and supper soft around here. Tire sauce would help also but if the track outlawed it, that's out. I guess they can't outlaw you saucing your tires a few times away from the track to soften up the compound? Check with the race director to see whats legal and what's not.

Also, driving a mid-motor buggy calls for a different driving style. Braking in a straight line and accelerating thru the corner, carrying as much speed as possible thru the corner will help with spin outs and stability issues you're wrestling with. This will makes the car feel more stable. Heavy braking into corner letting the rear end rotate and accelerating (point & shoot) like we did with the rear motor cars does't work as good and could be cause of some of the spins and tail happiness you reported.

I would just disable the fancy ESC turbo features completely. Until you've shaken the rust off and are battling for the front of the grid, leave the boost features, motor timing, etc alone. Keep it simple. I would recommend keeping your throttle curves at or close to linear as well. To smooth out the power-band turn down the throttle EPA to reduce power, just leave enough power to clear the biggest jump, and gradually increase the EPA as your skills improve. Use the turbo as the last little bit to get that last .05 a lap. I've not taken my ESC outta blinky mode yet and have one of the fastest cars down the straight at my track. I've observed a lot of 2wd buggy driver making the mistake of using way too much motor. That 7.5 turn sounds great in principle, but if you consistently overshooting landings, missing corners, and having trouble laying down the power outta corners, a fast motor is actually slowing you down.

10% drag brake is a good starting point and your car should handle it well. Drag brake is a personal preference thing. Some people will run a lot more, some a lot less. Try 5%, try 15%, find your sweet spot. I usually adjust mine in the 8-12% range based on the track and layout.

Where is your brake strength set on your ESC? This is a critical adjustment in my opinion. My first time out, I couldn't even look at the brake trigger without spinning out cause I had the brake strength at 100%. ESCs like the Orion are made for all categories of RC vehicle. Running it at 100% is way too much even for high bite offroad, and is meant to be used for touring cars and carpet racing. Most of the Orion pros like Mayfield and Tessman are running theirs at 62.5% and reducing the braking power further to suit the track conditions using their Radio EPA. And remember, pros can utilize the brake much better than us, so you may want to set your brake strength at 50% as a starting point.

The Schelle slipper is probably my favorite upgrade for a B5m. It has a wider range of adjustment that the stock piece and stay consistent through out the run and requires less maintenence. I would recommend setting it so the wheels only come off the ground about and inch or so when blipping the throttle with the rear wheels secured. Running a loose slipper make the car way more forgiving and easy to drive. Even when this loose, the slipper will slip very little under normal acceleration but will slip nicely when you overshoot a landing or accelerate thru a bumpy section making it much easier to drive and your lap times will be lower. If you think it's slipping too much, you can alway tighten it a little till it's dialed in to your particular track conditions/driving style.

Good Luck with your racing!

EDIT: P.S. You have a B5m, make sure the ballcups don't bind on the ballstuds. There is a post on the first page of this tread showing how to fix this. THIS IS CRITICAL! Your car will never handle correctly unless the suspension is free!!!
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Old 05-18-2015, 10:04 PM   #13819
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Originally Posted by bizarrefish View Post
Thanks Fred, think tires are okay as they are JConcepts barcodes. I did notice a huge improvement from all the dial backs I did with the speeds already, just need to test it out on track during a quiet period.

However, would love to take up the offer so will try and head over Wednesday night to say hi!
Clay compounds are the only ones to use at SDRC. Try the gold J concepts dirt webs or the AKA clay chainlinks.

What motor are you running ? Start with a 17.5 motor, very competitive class there. No TURBO or TIMING.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:09 AM   #13820
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I also just returned to RC racing after a 12 year layoff myself in December. The rust come off quickly, don't get discourage, enjoy the ride, Kites are dumb....

Most of the skittishness and tail happiness is probably the result of brand new tires. Need to get several runs on them to "break in". A lot of racers will sand down the clay compound tires to 1/2 or 1/3 their original tread height to get maximum grip. I just break them in naturally, but I race on medium bite Ohio tracks where clay compound doesn't work and the tracks aren't nearly as smooth or high bite as the West Coast tracks. Its all M4, Green, Black, and supper soft around here. Tire sauce would help also but if the track outlawed it, that's out. I guess they can't outlaw you saucing your tires a few times away from the track to soften up the compound? Check with the race director to see whats legal and what's not.

Also, driving a mid-motor buggy calls for a different driving style. Braking in a straight line and accelerating thru the corner, carrying as much speed as possible thru the corner will help with spin outs and stability issues you're wrestling with. This will makes the car feel more stable. Heavy braking into corner letting the rear end rotate and accelerating (point & shoot) like we did with the rear motor cars does't work as good and could be cause of some of the spins and tail happiness you reported.

I would just disable the fancy ESC turbo features completely. Until you've shaken the rust off and are battling for the front of the grid, leave the boost features, motor timing, etc alone. Keep it simple. I would recommend keeping your throttle curves at or close to linear as well. To smooth out the power-band turn down the throttle EPA to reduce power, just leave enough power to clear the biggest jump, and gradually increase the EPA as your skills improve. Use the turbo as the last little bit to get that last .05 a lap. I've not taken my ESC outta blinky mode yet and have one of the fastest cars down the straight at my track. I've observed a lot of 2wd buggy driver making the mistake of using way too much motor. That 7.5 turn sounds great in principle, but if you consistently overshooting landings, missing corners, and having trouble laying down the power outta corners, a fast motor is actually slowing you down.

10% drag brake is a good starting point and your car should handle it well. Drag brake is a personal preference thing. Some people will run a lot more, some a lot less. Try 5%, try 15%, find your sweet spot. I usually adjust mine in the 8-12% range based on the track and layout.

Where is your brake strength set on your ESC? This is a critical adjustment in my opinion. My first time out, I couldn't even look at the brake trigger without spinning out cause I had the brake strength at 100%. ESCs like the Orion are made for all categories of RC vehicle. Running it at 100% is way too much even for high bite offroad, and is meant to be used for touring cars and carpet racing. Most of the Orion pros like Mayfield and Tessman are running theirs at 62.5% and reducing the braking power further to suit the track conditions using their Radio EPA. And remember, pros can utilize the brake much better than us, so you may want to set your brake strength at 50% as a starting point.

The Schelle slipper is probably my favorite upgrade for a B5m. It has a wider range of adjustment that the stock piece and stay consistent through out the run and requires less maintenence. I would recommend setting it so the wheels only come off the ground about and inch or so when blipping the throttle with the rear wheels secured. Running a loose slipper make the car way more forgiving and easy to drive. Even when this loose, the slipper will slip very little under normal acceleration but will slip nicely when you overshoot a landing or accelerate thru a bumpy section making it much easier to drive and your lap times will be lower. If you think it's slipping too much, you can alway tighten it a little till it's dialed in to your particular track conditions/driving style.

Good Luck with your racing!

EDIT: P.S. You have a B5m, make sure the ballcups don't bind on the ballstuds. There is a post on the first page of this tread showing how to fix this. THIS IS CRITICAL! Your car will never handle correctly unless the suspension is free!!!
Thanks for the great feedback and taking the time to respond with detail, really appreciated.

I based tire choice on what was on SDRC website, in hindsight I should have asked more before committing. I might get a set of 2.2 JC Gold Dirt Webs based on feedback here. Didn't really want to use any sauce as I prefer to get the car working naturally if I can. 2.4's are also being discussed nowadays too aren't they?

Noted on driving style, I was trying to attempt the point and shoot approach rather than my 4wd smooth driving style. Putting the drag brake on has helped greatly in my outdoor tests post race track. Be good to get the car dialled in to my favourite style.

Understood re: EPA, I was playing with those settings as well. I'll move back to a linear profile but reduce top end to smooth over the range of trigger travel.

I did unfortunately go with a 7.5t, this was on the basis that I was pretty set to go with stock first but after reading saw it was a war on weight to be competitive and didn't want to take it that aggressive. My thought was buy once and dial it down. Looking at what you say I may have to get a 13.5 perhaps first before putting the 7.5 back in. I normally prefer to spend once and grow into it rather than buy twice in a short space of time. You think I'll be able to dial the 7.5 back to make it work or am I best to simply swap out for a few months?

Enabling the drag break helped me no end I think. I did reduce the brake down to 50% I believe from the original state.

I think I'll need to tighten the slipper a little bit more as after breaking it in barely lifts the wheels off on a blip before slipping.

Will check out the ball studs, I think the shock balls are ok but the turnbuckles might have one or two that are stiff.

Would anti roll bars also help? Used to be standard in my day to improve stability through corners.
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Old 05-19-2015, 12:11 AM   #13821
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Clay compounds are the only ones to use at SDRC. Try the gold J concepts dirt webs or the AKA clay chainlinks.

What motor are you running ? Start with a 17.5 motor, very competitive class there. No TURBO or TIMING.
Thanks Kevin, will look into the JC dirt webs, a few of you have recommended on here. Had taken advice from SDRC tire table originally.

I was going to start stock but saw stock had become a pure weight game so thought better of it. Thinking I might swap the 7.5 temporarily with a cheaper stock to get me some track time if I can't artificially dial it back enough electronically.
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Old 05-19-2015, 03:37 AM   #13822
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Wondering if you can trade your 7.5 for a 13.5? I run a 7.5 in my t5m and have throttle dual rate dialed down to 85% . The 13.5 class at sdrc is much more mellow than the stock class. Seems like the mod class (anything more than 13.5) is made up of drivers who have transitioned from stock or 13.5. It takes a lot of practice to control the power of a mod buggy imo. That said, dialing back the throttle epa and punch settings are things to try. If you plan on racing and do not want to play the weight game, 13.5 may be the way to go.
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Old 05-19-2015, 04:48 AM   #13823
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I Built a b5m lite last week. Threw it on the track box stock setup. 2nd place in all heats and the main. I was running an smc 4200 but it was borrowed. So I just purchased a juicepax 3000mah weighing in at just 150g. Anyone else try these?http://www.rcjuice.com/juicepax-race...o-shorty-pack/
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Old 05-19-2015, 07:58 AM   #13824
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Thanks Kevin, will look into the JC dirt webs, a few of you have recommended on here. Had taken advice from SDRC tire table originally.

I was going to start stock but saw stock had become a pure weight game so thought better of it. Thinking I might swap the 7.5 temporarily with a cheaper stock to get me some track time if I can't artificially dial it back enough electronically.
A 7.5 is a TON of motor.

A TON.

And you're adding boost?

This is why you have no grip. Think of a newly licensed driver trying to parallel park a top fuel funny car.

Buy a 17.5...I'll always recommend trinity, but if that isn't in the budget, buy something cheap and slow like a schuurspeed or a trackstar.

Get some gold dirt webs, and run some laps
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:05 AM   #13825
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Originally Posted by bizarrefish View Post
Thanks Kevin, will look into the JC dirt webs, a few of you have recommended on here. Had taken advice from SDRC tire table originally.

I was going to start stock but saw stock had become a pure weight game so thought better of it. Thinking I might swap the 7.5 temporarily with a cheaper stock to get me some track time if I can't artificially dial it back enough electronically.
Too much motor. and yeah, boosting that motor is way over kill. run 17.5 until you get the rust shaken off. If you insist on mod, try a 13.5.
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:29 AM   #13826
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some where out there is a meme for this whole scenario..
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Old 05-19-2015, 08:30 AM   #13827
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I Built a b5m lite last week. Threw it on the track box stock setup. 2nd place in all heats and the main. I was running an smc 4200 but it was borrowed. So I just purchased a juicepax 3000mah weighing in at just 150g. Anyone else try these?http://www.rcjuice.com/juicepax-race...o-shorty-pack/
I have to assume that it was a light attendance night
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:06 AM   #13828
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Here's the perfect meme for everything....
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:14 AM   #13829
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haha guys, I opened myself up to criticism to get feedback, oddly, until you do, not much feedback is forthcoming normally so I'm happy to take it on the chin to get the information I wanted :-).

Ridicule away, I'm thick skinned :-D.
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Old 05-19-2015, 10:57 AM   #13830
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haha guys, I opened myself up to criticism to get feedback, oddly, until you do, not much feedback is forthcoming normally so I'm happy to take it on the chin to get the information I wanted :-).

Ridicule away, I'm thick skinned :-D.
What ESC are you running?
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