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Old 09-16-2013, 07:29 PM   #1
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Default Setup inconsistencies ???

This has probably been figured out before but I can't work it out......

Why do setup stations (hudy) consistently give different readings t when the car is on the ground, I mean you set a car to the station and the the camber never seems to look right on the car, it always looks more of a positive then what you set on the station, I recently bought some hudy setup wheels thinking that these might give a more real world setup but I've just puts them on and let the suspension settle and there saying I have to much camber, so I adjust it get it all perfect then put the wheels back on and resettle the car and it always looks wrong, even using the same hudy camber gauge it now reads 1-1.5 more positive camber then it did with the setup wheels, now when I check this on the station it reads right, all I can put this down to is the distortion in the wheels and tires.

So if this is right, when we read a setup sheet from one of the team drivers do they use setup stations, set wheels or just simply a camber gauge against the wheels they have on at the time, because there could be a fair bit of difference in what you get depending on your method...

Any opinions? Or better still who knows
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:44 PM   #2
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I think a big part of it is the play in the suspension components. When you use a setup station especially on a setup board, the setup wheels/station can slide on the board because of reduced friction and can settle into a certain position. When the tires are on the car and you set it down, the tires grab and whatever play you have in the hubs/carriers/arms is held at the position it's in when you set it down.

Try this: set your camber with a regular camber gauge. Now grab your front wheel and tilt it in and out by hand and recheck your camber. I can nearly guarantee it changed.

I personally think most off-road cars are not precise enough for a setup station (unless you're buying Xrays or something with nice tight fitment).

That's my take anyway.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #3
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Set your car on the bench, roll it forward and check camber. Now roll it backward and check it again. It changed, didn't it?

The important thing is being able to get a REPEATABLE setup on your car. Using the setup station gives you the best chance to do that. Trust the station to read accurately and adjust your settings accordingly.
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Old 09-16-2013, 07:53 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaymon View Post
I think a big part of it is the play in the suspension components. When you use a setup station especially on a setup board, the setup wheels/station can slide on the board because of reduced friction and can settle into a certain position. When the tires are on the car and you set it down, the tires grab and whatever play you have in the hubs/carriers/arms is held at the position it's in when you set it down.

Try this: set your camber with a regular camber gauge. Now grab your front wheel and tilt it in and out by hand and recheck your camber. I can nearly guarantee it changed.

I personally think most off-road cars are not precise enough for a setup station (unless you're buying Xrays or something with nice tight fitment).

That's my take anyway.
I understand what your trying to say but the weight of the car is supported by all 4 axles at the same point as if it had wheels fitted, setup wheels or station, so the weight would be acting on the worn items in idzackly thes same way, plus I. Doing this on a brand new mp9, plus the setup wheels have a oring around them so would also give some friction on the setup board.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:00 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Jpm1 View Post
I understand what your trying to say but the weight of the car is supported by all 4 axles at the same point as if it had wheels fitted, setup wheels or station, so the weight would be acting on the worn items in idzackly thes same way, plus I. Doing this on a brand new mp9, plus the setup wheels have a oring around them so would also give some friction on the setup board.
If you do what razzbarlow7 and I have suggested, you'll get the results we mentioned. There is play in the suspension (even on new kits) and it will affect your readings. There's really no other explanation except maybe some variance in the wheel. Regardless, you are trying to be too precise for off-road if you think you are going to nail it to the degree. I typically will drop my car once, check camber, then drop again and check again. As long as I don't have a huge discrepancy (like -2 the first time and +2 the next), I typically just average out a couple of readings and call it good.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:23 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaymon View Post
If you do what razzbarlow7 and I have suggested, you'll get the results we mentioned. There is play in the suspension (even on new kits) and it will affect your readings. There's really no other explanation except maybe some variance in the wheel. Regardless, you are trying to be too precise for off-road if you think you are going to nail it to the degree. I typically will drop my car once, check camber, then drop again and check again. As long as I don't have a huge discrepancy (like -2 the first time and +2 the next), I typically just average out a couple of readings and call it good.
I totally agree that off road doesn't need to be to precise, what I'm more interested in is why, I've just dropped the car a dozen times on the setup board and its dam near identical every time but its still consistently 1-1.5 more positive then when checking with wheels/tires.

I'm more interested in setting the car the same way as the pros that way I can reflect what they are saying on setup sheets
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:54 PM   #7
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I have used both the Hudy and Team Magic stations and they do work,

Like the OP, I did have that issue as well. Used to use it a lot, but now not so much. Not that I don't trust the station, but track side, it's not the best thing to use if you only want to do a quick check or are in a hurry.

Mostly now I'll use it for a general setup or when building a new kit to try and get the camber links and steering toe set as close to even per side as I can. Then I just adjust to my final settings as needed. The main thing to remember, as has already been posted, is keeping track of parts wear and accounting for that in the station. The station will give you repeatable measurements, but you have to know there maybe some variance.

In Offroad, I don't think too many Pro drivers use a station track side, so I wouldn't be too concerned. Though in Onroad, specifically 1/8th Nitro, those guys will almost swear by a setup station.
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Old 09-16-2013, 08:59 PM   #8
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When I was running on-road, I always used my setup station. But again, I was running Xray T4's which are very precise cars. There is no play in them.

I've never had an off-road car that was tight enough to warrant even trying to use a station. The closest I had was when I was running Kyoshos. They were good, but still not touring car tight.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:00 PM   #9
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I use the station to do initial setup and most importantly steering throw, toe and alignment.

Then throw it onto setup wheels (I started using those DE Racing setup wheels) and do your camber. Track setup are done on the setup wheels.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:17 PM   #10
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1.) Setup stations apply more force on the camber rods to get the slop out of them. It's because the plates are so skinney and close in. Usually my Hudy station reads 0.5-1 degree more camber than a tire guage.

You'll notice a change in camber setting in a floppy Losi 8 when you switch from square carcass type tires to something with more of a rounded shape. Same idea.

2.) Plastic wheels are almost allways warped.
3.) Don't forget your 30mm blocks.

Camber isn't as key as rear roll center and hingepin setups when you copy a setup. If the car feels like it needs more camber, give it more camber.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:46 PM   #11
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I wouldnt use a setup station for offroad theres just to many bumps and ruts in jumps that change everything . I would just get a camber gauge and ride height gauge .
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Old 09-16-2013, 10:13 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpm1 View Post
Why do setup stations (hudy) consistently give different readings t when the car is on the ground, I mean you set a car to the station and the the camber never seems to look right on the car, it always looks more of a positive then what you set on the station, I recently bought some hudy setup wheels thinking that these might give a more real world setup but I've just puts them on and let the suspension settle and there saying I have to much camber, so I adjust it get it all perfect then put the wheels back on and resettle the car and it always looks wrong, even using the same hudy camber gauge it now reads 1-1.5 more positive camber then it did with the setup wheels, now when I check this on the station it reads right, all I can put this down to is the distortion in the wheels and tires.
Bingo. Wheels (tires and rims) are not perfectly round and are often bent. That's why you use setup wheels or a setup station, you want to get the reading off the axles. As someone pointed out earlier, slop has a great affect on settings as well. I get the same "distortion" when I bolt on my wheels as well.

Are you saying you get a different reading when measuring the setup wheels vs. using a station?

Quote:
So if this is right, when we read a setup sheet from one of the team drivers do they use setup stations, set wheels or just simply a camber gauge against the wheels they have on at the time, because there could be a fair bit of difference in what you get depending on your method...
I'm not sure what the team drivers are using currently, but I know that I've gotten more consistency out of my vehicles when regularly aligned with the setup station.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaymon View Post
When I was running on-road, I always used my setup station. But again, I was running Xray T4's which are very precise cars. There is no play in them.

I've never had an off-road car that was tight enough to warrant even trying to use a station. The closest I had was when I was running Kyoshos. They were good, but still not touring car tight.
Yep, I used my Hudy station to start the day with my Mugen nitro TC years ago and if I hit a board more than a kiss, it went back on. You could absolutely tell the difference.

I still use my 10+ year old Hudy 1/10 TC station on my 1/10 offroad vehicles, unfortunately not the toe gauge because of the tower height in offroad but I can at least dial in the camber accurately with a nice and slick Hudy setup board and sticker.

Its not as big of a difference in feel when fresh off the station as onroad but you can tell that's it is more balanced in the turns left to right and just seems to drive a little more true.

I agree, it does look like you are near 0 degrees of camber once the beat up tires are back on and if you roll it you may see +2 to -2 of camber but what are you going to do. At least you know that you have the camber links correct and whatever funkyness your seeing is in the wheel. Someone that's been at rc for a while may be close on my station but someone newer that goes on it can be way off, lean gauge or eyeball. Almost none are within 0.5 left to right from my experience.
If someone comes to me for setup help at the track, first step is they go on the station.

That does beg the question, if pros are using the lean a gauge against the wheel method which is obviously way off just from the wheel let alone all the other wiggle points... what do you go by when they say 1.5 camber in the rear and 1 in the front. Would be nice if it was listed on the setup sheet if it was tuned on a station or if it is close enough for horse shoes & hand grenades

If it was a lean against the tire gauge, you can just throw 0.5 increments out the door and the 1 measurement is probably more like 2.5 or 3 or who really knows. But a pro can feel what they need to be at so maybe eyeballing it is just as good for them and just drive it and make slight tweaks throughout the warmups.

A lot of good points so far in this thread, use the station for a consistent number and find your own camber number. Maybe 4 on the station is more like what the setup sheet is intending when it says 1.5. But at least you can get a repeatable tune whether it is 1 or 4 on the station.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:20 PM   #14
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I also use a Hudy setup station on all my cars. At first I saw the same thing, -1.5 on the station and 0 degrees when dropped on a setup board and measured. What you have to remember is the car is not moving when you drop. Roll it forward or grab the wheels and gently pull them towards negative camber and they will move. Now check your camber. I can almost guarantee it's the same reading as your setup board. If you've ever jacked up the front end of a 1:1 car you would know that the tires actually pull in (move towards positive camber) as you jack the car up. Set it back down and you have pos camber. It's not until you drive the car does the camber settle back in to the proper setting. Same with RC.

Trust the setup station and always check your camber the same way at the track. Drop from 6-8 inches and pull tires out or roll forward 1-2 inches. Now check setting. Definitely more accurate or "real world" setting.
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Old 09-16-2013, 11:51 PM   #15
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Yeah, slide back & forth on the board ending with a pull towards you setting the foot against the vertical plate.
But roll it back & forth with the wheels on... woooo multiple degrees of change all 4 not being the same change with a majority of it from a used wheel.
Measuring at the wheels is way off imo unless they are brand new and even then you are adding another joint to get a wiggle from.
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