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Old 06-23-2014, 10:44 AM   #3271
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Why not run 32 pitch since there's no slipper to take the beating?
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:46 AM   #3272
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32P sounds like a good idea to me.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:00 AM   #3273
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I presume by running 32 pitch, the gear ratio will change considerably, and possibly way off what was initially intended, thus hindering performance quite a bit.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:21 AM   #3274
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Dang guys, I have been out of it for a while, too many plates spinning. What have I missed in the last couple months? Anything need to get added to the front page? I noticed I haven't gotten any parts from my Tower Hobbies back orders...


Hey~

Sorry I wanted to make this little post public so maybe it can happen...(rather than a PM.)

You planning to go to FTR for the MN Nitro Series Race??

I understand that they don't normally have a wheeler class, but they'll make a class if there are 4 to race. (which might make marshalling after a bit tricky.)

I also understand that the owner of the 510 is a HB Team driver, and has a 413 too...

if you are planning to attend, bring the 413 too! (I will have mine there for sure.) and IF they get stock before then, a buddy of mine will have his too! (that makes a class... of JUST 413s! lol.)
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:24 AM   #3275
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I presume by running 32 pitch, the gear ratio will change considerably, and possibly way off what was initially intended, thus hindering performance quite a bit.
No, that's not how it works. Same diameter gears (think of them as circles instead of #teeth). The only difference is going up or down a tooth will be a bigger gap. Just like 64 pitch you be running a much higher number of teeth but going up and down a pinion is a smaller jump for finer tuning options. You'll only run into trouble if 32p makes you jump too high or too low with a 1 tooth pinion change.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:27 AM   #3276
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i also think it would be helpful to know from those who have stripped them, what action caused it? was under heavy braking? was it during a big crash? did you check the mesh before the run? i know it might be hard to tell exactly what caused the stripped spur, it looks like in lass' case, the saw blade pinion was most likely the culprit, but what about mondrell? does he know exactly when it stripped?
At this point the issue is somewhat (or becoming) widespread enough that it's impossible just one thing is causing the issue. Not across so many different people in different states, running different turn motors with different power bands, diff oils, etc..

The one thing I can say always sounded to me to be a bit too extreme is 100K diff oil because the resistance such thick oil poses might just be enough to place excessive enough strain on the spur, both under acceleration and deceleration/braking, and that might be fracturing a few teeth here and there until enough of them fracture that it lets go.

Think of how you can flex plastic back and forth until it begins to weaken and subsequently cracks or breaks. This is what I envision might be happening with the extremely thick diff oil. The DESC410 is considerably heavier than the 413 and generally a diff oil of 50K is enough. 100K oil in a 1/10 car seems too much.

I think the solution is an integrated slipper just like the DESC410 to provide some slip for the well being of the spur. these are tiny little teeth and perhaps too much is being asked of them.
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Old 06-23-2014, 11:58 AM   #3277
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has anybody mounted the ESC behind the motor and the receiver up front?
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:09 PM   #3278
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Originally Posted by the incubus View Post
At this point the issue is somewhat (or becoming) widespread enough that it's impossible just one thing is causing the issue. Not across so many different people in different states, running different turn motors with different power bands, diff oils, etc..

The one thing I can say always sounded to me to be a bit too extreme is 100K diff oil because the resistance such thick oil poses might just be enough to place excessive enough strain on the spur, both under acceleration and deceleration/braking, and that might be fracturing a few teeth here and there until enough of them fracture that it lets go.

Think of how you can flex plastic back and forth until it begins to weaken and subsequently cracks or breaks. This is what I envision might be happening with the extremely thick diff oil. The DESC410 is considerably heavier than the 413 and generally a diff oil of 50K is enough. 100K oil in a 1/10 car seems too much.

I think the solution is an integrated slipper just like the DESC410 to provide some slip for the well being of the spur. these are tiny little teeth and perhaps too much is being asked of them.
I haven't got a 413 but I read a lot in this thread and I've driven two D413 from 2 buddies of mine on different tracks. First of all something similar does happen with my BMax4 III with the spur gear... mainly when jumping and going to early on the throttle while landing (or slightly earlier). Even with the slipper, the initial shock is enough to strip a tooth. Clearly a car with gear diffs will be more prone to this.
But I think the D413 is great without the slipper... I hated the Desc410 slipper, it sucked, was practically useless for such a heavy car and always came loose during the races... good luck with jumping with a loose slipper

I think the new gear diff cars can handle more power than classic ball diff cars but just need a little bit adjustment when driving since there is no slipper or ball diff that takes the peak of the power...
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Old 06-23-2014, 12:24 PM   #3279
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Originally Posted by the incubus View Post
At this point the issue is somewhat (or becoming) widespread enough that it's impossible just one thing is causing the issue. Not across so many different people in different states, running different turn motors with different power bands, diff oils, etc..

The one thing I can say always sounded to me to be a bit too extreme is 100K diff oil because the resistance such thick oil poses might just be enough to place excessive enough strain on the spur, both under acceleration and deceleration/braking, and that might be fracturing a few teeth here and there until enough of them fracture that it lets go.

Think of how you can flex plastic back and forth until it begins to weaken and subsequently cracks or breaks. This is what I envision might be happening with the extremely thick diff oil. The DESC410 is considerably heavier than the 413 and generally a diff oil of 50K is enough. 100K oil in a 1/10 car seems too much.

I think the solution is an integrated slipper just like the DESC410 to provide some slip for the well being of the spur. these are tiny little teeth and perhaps too much is being asked of them.
don't pay attention to the numbers on the diff oil. you have to run it to see/feel what is right. pretty sure with 50K in the center diff, you'd be roasting your front tires on any track medium traction or higher. i run on a very high grip surgared track and tire wear is pretty much 50/50. if i was running on a medium/low track, i'd experiment with lower diff oils in the center, but to me, 100K feels right.

as for going to 32P and it messing up the ratio, gticlay is right. it doesn't work that way.

on road 64p, 1/10 2wd 48p, 1/8 mod 1. an argument could be made there is a gap in there. i think 32p would be fantastic.
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:16 PM   #3280
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has anybody mounted the ESC behind the motor and the receiver up front?
I have done it this way. It works very well but it is a little tight. I ran a very short sensor wire. I also run a shorty 1251mg savox servo.
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:18 PM   #3281
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how did you run your servo wire?
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:20 PM   #3282
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I absolutely could if any of spur gears I have personally seen strip weren't the result of poor mesh and/or bad pinions. If the plastic is weak and the design is flawed in some way make them fix it. But there needs to be more proof that the spur itself is the culprit. That is why I ask for details anytime someone posts they have stripped a spur.
Ive had a Delran spur in my SCTE for over a year and that truck takes more of a pounding than my D413 has ever or even could ever. I wouldn't mind a piece made from the same material.

Something else that HB might want to think about is reworking their center diff case to accept a traditional spur gear. Would make less headache for the consumer and easy to play with gearing on the fly. Looks like my D413 is on the shelf for a little while...

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I'm mostly an on-roader but do run off road also and i'm patiently waiting for my D413 on order.

This is just an idea. In onroad running MOD 5.5T - 4.5T motors I've had issues with spurs stripping because of the "Breaks" being set to 100% on the ESC and on the Radio. I soften the breaks to 90% and problem gone. Could that be the Spur issue?
I have a 8.5 in blinky mode (no boost/timing) and my breaks are set at about 65% Its the spur. Even at 100% brakes... I NEVER had an issue carving up a spur gear from my ZX5 when I had it....
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:26 PM   #3283
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how did you run your servo wire?
Its hard to see but its routed on the chassis and then wrapped into the shrink wrap.
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:36 PM   #3284
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I was thinking of running my stuff this way.balanced ok?
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Old 06-23-2014, 01:36 PM   #3285
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Originally Posted by Mclogo View Post
I haven't got a 413 but I read a lot in this thread and I've driven two D413 from 2 buddies of mine on different tracks. First of all something similar does happen with my BMax4 III with the spur gear... mainly when jumping and going to early on the throttle while landing (or slightly earlier). Even with the slipper, the initial shock is enough to strip a tooth. Clearly a car with gear diffs will be more prone to this.
But I think the D413 is great without the slipper... I hated the Desc410 slipper, it sucked, was practically useless for such a heavy car and always came loose during the races... good luck with jumping with a loose slipper

I think the new gear diff cars can handle more power than classic ball diff cars but just need a little bit adjustment when driving since there is no slipper or ball diff that takes the peak of the power...
When it comes to slippers and 4WD people constantly lock down the slippers which results in a static system which defeats the purpose. It's called a slipper because it's designed to slip a little. I run a DEX410 and I have a little slip built in and it has been flawless and has NEVER turned out on me and a few guys at my 2 local tracks run the DESC and the dual lock nut system hasn't loosened on them that I can remember. I've driven some of those trucks and they drove really well and never lost drive and never stripped a spur.

As for Ball Diffs, they are just fine and do their job exquisitely well, when assembled with quality parts and set properly. Too often people speak ill of Ball Diffs but more races and more championships have been won with them than anything else. While gear diffs might be fantastic they are an even bigger pain in the ass than Ball diffs to get just right because in order to tune you have to pull them out of the car (pretty easy for me) and then pull them apart and clean them out and then add a different weight oil and rinse and repeat until it's just right. It's a whole heck of a lot more work (and messy) than sliding an allen key into a hub and turning the opposing wheel to adjust. And contrary to popular belief, YES, you can fine tune via the Ball Diff. The window is rather small, but it's there and is effective if you know what you're doing. Each have their pros and their cons and I won't say one is better than the other, but the 413 is clearly suffering some sort of issue in the drive train causing all these spurs to fail.

Who knows?… it just might very well be the material it's made out of, but I doubt with all his years of experience Torrence would make a vehicle of this caliber and not go with a material he already knows is up to the task.

I still say a slipper with just the right amount of slip (not set to full lock) would be perfect here.
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