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Old 05-21-2012, 09:42 PM   #16
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Take the design from the dex 210 and improve from there if you really want to get innovative...
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:46 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by one-nil View Post
having been around since the old tub RC10 era, I actually laughed.
+1, actually like the aluminum chassis, they are nice and strong, and now that we have plenty of HP with lipo and brushless... Go aluminum chassis!
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:19 PM   #18
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having been around since the old tub RC10 era, I actually laughed.
Same here! An aluminum chassis plate actually LOWERS the CoG. Don't kid yourselves into thinking Losi and Durango didn't do it for this reason. There is no other need for an aluminum chassis in 1/10th buggy.....
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:45 PM   #19
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Mid Motor isnt that great for US style tracks. It is really good on Astroturf or super high bite tracks like in the UK and such, but 98% of guys in the US don't run mid motor from what I have seen.

Adding an option would likely increase both your cost and time.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:48 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by K_King View Post
Mid Motor isnt that great for US style tracks. It is really good on Astroturf or super high bite tracks like in the UK and such, but 98% of guys in the US don't run mid motor from what I have seen.

Adding an option would likely increase both your cost and time.
Except uncle Charlie,I think he's the only guy to mAke. Mid motor 22 work in med bite clay
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:52 PM   #21
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But that's stock :P
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Old 05-22-2012, 06:39 AM   #22
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I've been using Inventor for a few years. I use Solidworks at work. If you know one then the other is pretty intuitive to pick up since they are both pretty similar. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages over the other. Moving from one of these to something like Catia or Pro-E is a nightmare and vice versa. They are very difficult to learn by comparison.

Mid motor can work just fine on low bite tracks. The problem isn't that they don't work in America. The problem is that most Americans don't know how to tune. Can't turn? Just add weight up front. No forward traction? Add weight. What setup should I run? Sound familiar? Few people actually know what to do and there's no shortage of others that also don't know that will answer them. That is the wrong way to do things yet the most common. Until people learn to tune first, play with weight later, they'll never figure out mid motor anywhere but on high grip. Now saying that, does it mean you'd never want rear motor? Not at all. It certainly has it's advantages as well but every design is a tradeoff and either can work quite well.

Buggy design has stagnated over the last 20 years. They are all basically the same. Once you get the basic geometry of the A-arm setup out of the way, they are really all pretty similar in design. You can change shapes here and there to make it look a bit different from another or change materials to make things stronger but there's a reason why we haven't seen a new Associated vehicle in years or why the XXX was the Losi buggy for a very long time. The new cars may be stronger and have added features and updated looks but fundamentally they are all pretty similar to each other. If you want to design a new car, think differently. Do what the industry doesn't do. Keep in mind there have been so many things tried that it will be very difficult to think of something truly unique. Perhaps it's time to revisit some design elements from the past.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:50 AM   #23
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After racing real cars for years and being around a mechanical/structural engineer for all my life, (my father) I myself have been toying with building a complete RC vehicle from the ground up. My father has taken the time to watch and learn my hobby of RC vehicles and is currently helping me design/build a prototype dirt late model car that I plan to compete with at our local track next year. I found the comment about a "mid motor" vehicle not being good here in the U.S. and thought I'd throw my two cents in.

First off, a "mid motor" car will be a better balanced vehicle no matter what. Weight to the center of the vehicle allows your to "tailor" your suspension and add or subtract weight from where it needs to be done. Saying a mid motor vehicle don't work here in the U.S. is like saying nobody in China can eat cheese because its just not liked there. It may not be what most RC racers are running in the United States, but maybe the "RIGHT" mid motored rc vehicle hasn't been built yet?

For bumps and jumps on the off road, maybe a rear motor is the way to go, but for my design of a dirt oval car, it mid motor all the way!
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:16 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredswain View Post
I've been using Inventor for a few years. I use Solidworks at work. If you know one then the other is pretty intuitive to pick up since they are both pretty similar. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages over the other. Moving from one of these to something like Catia or Pro-E is a nightmare and vice versa. They are very difficult to learn by comparison.

Mid motor can work just fine on low bite tracks. The problem isn't that they don't work in America. The problem is that most Americans don't know how to tune. Can't turn? Just add weight up front. No forward traction? Add weight. What setup should I run? Sound familiar? Few people actually know what to do and there's no shortage of others that also don't know that will answer them. That is the wrong way to do things yet the most common. Until people learn to tune first, play with weight later, they'll never figure out mid motor anywhere but on high grip. Now saying that, does it mean you'd never want rear motor? Not at all. It certainly has it's advantages as well but every design is a tradeoff and either can work quite well.

Buggy design has stagnated over the last 20 years. They are all basically the same. Once you get the basic geometry of the A-arm setup out of the way, they are really all pretty similar in design. You can change shapes here and there to make it look a bit different from another or change materials to make things stronger but there's a reason why we haven't seen a new Associated vehicle in years or why the XXX was the Losi buggy for a very long time. The new cars may be stronger and have added features and updated looks but fundamentally they are all pretty similar to each other. If you want to design a new car, think differently. Do what the industry doesn't do. Keep in mind there have been so many things tried that it will be very difficult to think of something truly unique. Perhaps it's time to revisit some design elements from the past.
FWIW the Pros test their cars to the extreme and I dont see any TLR guys running mid motor anywhere...
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by one-nil View Post
having been around since the old tub RC10 era, I actually laughed.
that is true but that was the only chassis associated made it on up to now the b2, b3 and the b4 and if you want to put it in a different category the b4.1 all have composite chassis and losi was mainly composite chassis up until the 22, so in my opinion the composite is more traditional
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Old 05-22-2012, 10:47 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by one-nil View Post
having been around since the old tub RC10 era, I actually laughed.
Me too. When I got back in recently my first thought was how cheap the chassis looked.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:58 AM   #27
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FWIW the Pros test their cars to the extreme and I dont see any TLR guys running mid motor anywhere...
So what? Who cares what the pros do? I certainly don't and you shouldn't either. Setup your own car!

As a bit of a FWIW back at you, the 22 doesn't work well in mid motor anywhere other than in high grip situations due to it's design. It's motor is too far forward and hence moves the battery too far forwards as well. It's not a flaw with mid motor as a concept. It's a flaw with that particular car as a design. The thing that people don't seem to understand in offroad is that front to rear weight distribution is what matters, not where the motor is located. You do need weight on the rear wheels in a 2wd buggy but it doesn't have to be behind the axle centerline. Few people outside of X Factory seem to understand this. When people start to realize the benefit of mid motor is not to shift weight forward more onto the front wheels but rather have it withing the wheelbase itself, we'll see more setups on looser tracks. TLR does sell weight sets that add weight to the rear of the 22 but for some reason they add it back behind the axle centerline again which is a bit worthless since that's where you don't want it. Design problems mean you should probably leave that car rear motor. The same goes for the DEX-210. Same problems.
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:06 PM   #28
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to suggest something for the buggy design, i really am not a huge fan of the newer buggies (dex210/tlr22) having the aluminum main plate i like the traditional composite chassis
In comparing them to aluminum, how can you use the word "traditional" when describing a composite chassis?
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:13 PM   #29
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So what? Who cares what the pros do? I certainly don't and you shouldn't either. Setup your own car!

As a bit of a FWIW back at you, the 22 doesn't work well in mid motor anywhere other than in high grip situations due to it's design. It's motor is too far forward and hence moves the battery too far forwards as well. It's not a flaw with mid motor as a concept. It's a flaw with that particular car as a design. The thing that people don't seem to understand in offroad is that front to rear weight distribution is what matters, not where the motor is located. You do need weight on the rear wheels in a 2wd buggy but it doesn't have to be behind the axle centerline. Few people outside of X Factory seem to understand this. When people start to realize the benefit of mid motor is not to shift weight forward more onto the front wheels but rather have it withing the wheelbase itself, we'll see more setups on looser tracks. TLR does sell weight sets that add weight to the rear of the 22 but for some reason they add it back behind the axle centerline again which is a bit worthless since that's where you don't want it. Design problems mean you should probably leave that car rear motor. The same goes for the DEX-210. Same problems.

I care what the Pros do as they have a lot more time and energy invested into what works. Will it work for me? Maybe, maybe not. I understand its weight, that's pretty much all it is with a mid motor design, HENCE why many don't run it on US tracks. We don't need the weight where it puts it on tracks that aren't super high bite. One post you say people don't run it, due to them not being able to setup the car, then another you say people don't run it due to poor design. Uhhhhhhhhh
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Old 05-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #30
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Yes Fred, we should care what the pro's do. Collectively they put in thousands of hours of design and testing that we simply dont have the time to do. This is why cars keep getting better. If the pros cant be faster or turn better lap times with mid motor, what makes you think the average joe can?
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