4wd Buggy Racing for 2005
02-06-2005, 05:37 PM
#46
1/8th scale racing uses spec-type motors because they're all .21's? You're kidding, right?
An O.S. RG vs. a Sirio Kanai II or NovaRossi P5...
An O.S. RG vs. a Sirio Kanai II or NovaRossi P5...
02-07-2005, 06:47 AM
#47
An O.S. RG vs. a Sirio Kanai II or NovaRossi P5...
Just because a manufacture decides to make a better performing but still .21 motor out there doesn't mean that its unlimited by what I have stated.
As for the spec batteries and spec tires comment, in a way we already spec our batteries ( 6 cell limit in most cases and for ROAR events cells have to be pre-approved to be legal for competition) and I have heard of control tires being used at some events.
The point is we have limits on everything we do in most RC classes. The may be minor limits that we don't even recognize as they are common place but they are there.
What my proposal is that we look for a common ground for 4wd as a starting point with the class in low to no turnout areas as well as providing a good balance of speed and control to satisfy a veteran racer.
If the option is available, give it a try as a demo for a few races and see how everyone likes it.
This is what I propose and will try to get going for a few races here in Fargo. I will bring this up at the next club meeting once I get a notice on when that will take place.
Startbuck: sorry to hear that 4wd is dead by you. The guys who do show up to race, what class do they run and what chassis? How are the other classes?
Thanks again guys for your thoughts and your opinions. I know alot of us dissagree on this and that is fine, the good thing is we have a discussion going on about 4wd and are getting some thoughts and ideas out there.
I am willing to try whatever is necessary to get the class to grow again at the local level and by no means do I say my proposal is the best one as there are others who probably have better ideas than myself. If you have a suggestion that you think will work better by all means post!
I just hope we all can be open to trying different ideas.
02-07-2005, 08:23 AM
#48
I'm really happy to see this discussion of ways to increase the turn-out in any R/C class, especially 4WD electric. Some thoughts:
On all but the longest indoor tracks, or big outdoor tracks built for 1/8, 4WD Mod is usually the fastest class at the track, faster in many instances than 1/8. Therefore, drivers with less skill will crash more, and the crashes will break more parts. We can't change the laws of physics. But the class is also the most fun to drive/race.
Even with stock motors, 4WD is the fastest class. Check times at the Stock Nats. The same holds true with 19-T.
By their nature, and because of the above, 4WD will be the most expensive class to manufacture and own. There's simply no way to make a 4WD car for anything near the cost of a comparable 2WD. There's simply more of everything, and those things are the expensive stuff. We think the speed is worth the extra $$.
Because of these things, 4WD will probably never be as large a class as buggy. Most parts of the world run very little truck, if any, and in those places, the 2WD/4WD split is about 60/40. I hope we in the US can one day reach a buggy/truck/wheeler split around 40/35/25.
With several new cars on the market to spike interest, that seems do-able. IMO, 4WD is now much more interesting than buggy & truck, which have become 2-manufacturer classes. Absolutely boring compared to 4WD, which routinely features four or five different types of car at any big race, including as many as four different brands with factory Team drivers. I believe the major show at the ROAR Mod Nats this year is going be 4WD.
On all but the longest indoor tracks, or big outdoor tracks built for 1/8, 4WD Mod is usually the fastest class at the track, faster in many instances than 1/8. Therefore, drivers with less skill will crash more, and the crashes will break more parts. We can't change the laws of physics. But the class is also the most fun to drive/race.
Even with stock motors, 4WD is the fastest class. Check times at the Stock Nats. The same holds true with 19-T.
By their nature, and because of the above, 4WD will be the most expensive class to manufacture and own. There's simply no way to make a 4WD car for anything near the cost of a comparable 2WD. There's simply more of everything, and those things are the expensive stuff. We think the speed is worth the extra $$.
Because of these things, 4WD will probably never be as large a class as buggy. Most parts of the world run very little truck, if any, and in those places, the 2WD/4WD split is about 60/40. I hope we in the US can one day reach a buggy/truck/wheeler split around 40/35/25.
With several new cars on the market to spike interest, that seems do-able. IMO, 4WD is now much more interesting than buggy & truck, which have become 2-manufacturer classes. Absolutely boring compared to 4WD, which routinely features four or five different types of car at any big race, including as many as four different brands with factory Team drivers. I believe the major show at the ROAR Mod Nats this year is going be 4WD.
02-07-2005, 09:25 AM
#49
YoungChazz: Thank you for you response. Your X-5 is part of the reason there has been growth in the 4wd class.
As for affordable vehicles, there are options out there, with the Losi XXX-4 team version being available for around $200 now and the SBs being available in that range as well. Your X-5 is also a good cheap conversion that converts the lowcost (nowadays ) XX-4 to a single belt design.
The variety of the chassis platforms is part of the reason I liked touring when I ran it seriously in connecticut and one of the reasons I am excited about 4wd as well.
What are you thoughts on a gaining interest in 4wd by having mod class not be the first class for 4wd at alot of the tracks that have lower 4wd turnout? As you know, I believe if the class is made more accessible to newbies, somewhat veteran racers, etc, we will see a growth in overall 4wd participation.
As for affordable vehicles, there are options out there, with the Losi XXX-4 team version being available for around $200 now and the SBs being available in that range as well. Your X-5 is also a good cheap conversion that converts the lowcost (nowadays ) XX-4 to a single belt design.
The variety of the chassis platforms is part of the reason I liked touring when I ran it seriously in connecticut and one of the reasons I am excited about 4wd as well.
What are you thoughts on a gaining interest in 4wd by having mod class not be the first class for 4wd at alot of the tracks that have lower 4wd turnout? As you know, I believe if the class is made more accessible to newbies, somewhat veteran racers, etc, we will see a growth in overall 4wd participation.
Last edited by Cain; 02-07-2005 at 10:26 AM.
02-09-2005, 04:36 AM
#50
Tech Rookie
Greetings from the UK
Just thought I'd throw my twopenneth from over the water......
The club I race at (www.forcc.co.uk) has run for the last 20 years in a village hall with a polished wooden floor. We race 2wd and 4wd, on average split 80%/20% in favour of the 4wd class. We ONLY allow stock class motors for the following reasons.
Cost. We are continually striving to increase our numbers, and by running stock motors we can show prospective members that it is cheaper to run stock than mod. I don't just mean for the initial outlay either - motor brushes last longer, there is less strain imposed on the car due to the (slightly) slower speeds, battery strain is less so the cells last longer, tyres last forever, etc. Also starting out with a slower car means people hit things more slowly (and trust me, they do), thus reducing the risk of breaking the car.
Space. Although our hall is a fair size, it is not practicable to run cars any faster than we do at present. Not only that, but with the surface we race on, running mod would just leave you wheelspinning all over the place. 27T stock is plenty quick enough in a restricted space with 6 or 7 other drivers all trying to do the same thing as you within 5 minutes.
Now - "What's this got to do with anything?" I hear some people mutter. I'll refer you to my first paragraph - we have been racing for 20 YEARS. Back in the heyday we used to have 60 people racing EVERY week - not bad for a Wednesday night in a village hall. Numbers dropped over the years due to the TC class becoming popular - but last year we saw our membership rise again to 50 or so, and we currently see a regular 35 or so drivers racing week in week out. As I said - not bad for a midweek night - that's 4 heats of 4wd and 1 of 2wd.
And we have all abilities. From the absolute beginner, to old farts like me who have been racing for 20 years. We've got a regional champion who races every week becuase "it helps to keep his thumbs in", and we have drivers who regularly race at weekends with full blown mod motors at regional and national events.
Above all else, the racing is competitive, but not deadly serious. We all share information. We make newcomers welcome and show them the ropes (unlike some clubs I could mention). The new blood to our club must be nurtured, as natural progression states that we will always lose a few members during the year, so it is imperative that new members stay or else the club will die.
I think it's a real shame that the UK 4wd off road national series is for mod only, as I'm positive that with a stock class the numbers racing would shoot through the roof. A lot of the drivers at our club are in the same boat as me - wife and 2 kids to support, house and car to run, and a hobby to support as well. Naturally the budget for the hobby comes after everything else is covered, and the sheer cost of running a mod car competitively compared to stock at a regional or national event puts doing so beyond the means of the average Joe.
Think about it - as I said - 20 years. It's a hell of a long time - we must be doing something right eh?
The club I race at (www.forcc.co.uk) has run for the last 20 years in a village hall with a polished wooden floor. We race 2wd and 4wd, on average split 80%/20% in favour of the 4wd class. We ONLY allow stock class motors for the following reasons.
Cost. We are continually striving to increase our numbers, and by running stock motors we can show prospective members that it is cheaper to run stock than mod. I don't just mean for the initial outlay either - motor brushes last longer, there is less strain imposed on the car due to the (slightly) slower speeds, battery strain is less so the cells last longer, tyres last forever, etc. Also starting out with a slower car means people hit things more slowly (and trust me, they do), thus reducing the risk of breaking the car.
Space. Although our hall is a fair size, it is not practicable to run cars any faster than we do at present. Not only that, but with the surface we race on, running mod would just leave you wheelspinning all over the place. 27T stock is plenty quick enough in a restricted space with 6 or 7 other drivers all trying to do the same thing as you within 5 minutes.
Now - "What's this got to do with anything?" I hear some people mutter. I'll refer you to my first paragraph - we have been racing for 20 YEARS. Back in the heyday we used to have 60 people racing EVERY week - not bad for a Wednesday night in a village hall. Numbers dropped over the years due to the TC class becoming popular - but last year we saw our membership rise again to 50 or so, and we currently see a regular 35 or so drivers racing week in week out. As I said - not bad for a midweek night - that's 4 heats of 4wd and 1 of 2wd.
And we have all abilities. From the absolute beginner, to old farts like me who have been racing for 20 years. We've got a regional champion who races every week becuase "it helps to keep his thumbs in", and we have drivers who regularly race at weekends with full blown mod motors at regional and national events.
Above all else, the racing is competitive, but not deadly serious. We all share information. We make newcomers welcome and show them the ropes (unlike some clubs I could mention). The new blood to our club must be nurtured, as natural progression states that we will always lose a few members during the year, so it is imperative that new members stay or else the club will die.
I think it's a real shame that the UK 4wd off road national series is for mod only, as I'm positive that with a stock class the numbers racing would shoot through the roof. A lot of the drivers at our club are in the same boat as me - wife and 2 kids to support, house and car to run, and a hobby to support as well. Naturally the budget for the hobby comes after everything else is covered, and the sheer cost of running a mod car competitively compared to stock at a regional or national event puts doing so beyond the means of the average Joe.
Think about it - as I said - 20 years. It's a hell of a long time - we must be doing something right eh?
02-09-2005, 08:48 AM
#51
You must be doing something right, Hog, for the club to survive 20 years. Our CRCRC is about that old, having just hosted the 18th annual Mid-Winter Championship with almost 500 entries for the electric weekend. The trials and tribulations along the way would fill a book!
I want to get to England to watch off-road cars racing on polished wood floors, and astroturf, and cobblestones, and, apparently, anything else you've got lying about! By all reports you've got everything but dirt -- LOL.
Seriously, 4WD stock is contested every year at the ROAR Stock Nats, and, as I said, it's the fastest class. So it is done here, just not very much. And I agree, stock (or 19-T) would be better for the novice, perhaps engendering more participation.
Unfortunately, we've got to deal with what's there now. I remember starting out eight (has it really been that long?) years ago with Paul. Because of the place where we live -- there's no back yard, just a woods -- his first R/C car was a wheeler. After Paul had played with it a while, I told him there might be a place somewhere where they held organized races, and we were, as they say, off to the races. With a wheeler.
It was his only car. His Tamiya was, in fact, unsuitable for racing, so, still thinking about the woods, I got him one of the first xx-4s. The manager of the LHS, Bill Bridges (Losi factory driver) sold us a 14 X 2 Onyx and Paul headed for the track.
That's how Paul started, and that car & motor quickly and brutally taught him racing lessons that stand him in good stead today, particularly throttle control and perserverance. There were too many horrible disastrous crashes to mention, but Paul, to his credit, stuck with it and learned.
Does that make 4WD Mod the place for all to start? No.
Does that make 4WD Mod the best place for anyone to start? No.
But it can be done...
I want to get to England to watch off-road cars racing on polished wood floors, and astroturf, and cobblestones, and, apparently, anything else you've got lying about! By all reports you've got everything but dirt -- LOL.
Seriously, 4WD stock is contested every year at the ROAR Stock Nats, and, as I said, it's the fastest class. So it is done here, just not very much. And I agree, stock (or 19-T) would be better for the novice, perhaps engendering more participation.
Unfortunately, we've got to deal with what's there now. I remember starting out eight (has it really been that long?) years ago with Paul. Because of the place where we live -- there's no back yard, just a woods -- his first R/C car was a wheeler. After Paul had played with it a while, I told him there might be a place somewhere where they held organized races, and we were, as they say, off to the races. With a wheeler.
It was his only car. His Tamiya was, in fact, unsuitable for racing, so, still thinking about the woods, I got him one of the first xx-4s. The manager of the LHS, Bill Bridges (Losi factory driver) sold us a 14 X 2 Onyx and Paul headed for the track.
That's how Paul started, and that car & motor quickly and brutally taught him racing lessons that stand him in good stead today, particularly throttle control and perserverance. There were too many horrible disastrous crashes to mention, but Paul, to his credit, stuck with it and learned.
Does that make 4WD Mod the place for all to start? No.
Does that make 4WD Mod the best place for anyone to start? No.
But it can be done...
02-09-2005, 08:54 AM
#52
Tech Rookie
Where I race at we have 7 - 10 4 wheelers on a week night and about 15 on a saturday. When my son joined the class he used a stock motor in his car and was only off the pace by about one second. Now with a mod in his car he has been a handful to get around. Some of the other kids at the track have seen this and have gotten into the 4 wheel world as well. Even though they are new to this, the seasoned drivers have a great time with them and work with them to become better. Some people say that the XXX4 is brittle and breaks alot, I think it is an excellent car and once you get through that part of the learning curve very little goes wrong. We love it when a new driver shows up for 4wd and do what we can to keep them in it. Hopefully there is a lot of other tracks that do the same.
02-09-2005, 10:36 AM
#53
Thanks for all the comments guys!
YoungChazz: At your local track I am assuming 4wd is quite the popular class. Do you think people would be interested in trying out a spec ( stock or 19T, whatever works for your track ) class as a demo for a few weeks to see what the interest would be for newbies, etc? I would love to see something about that on www.4wdrc.com .
AZCrazy1: I think some of the issues with people saying the XXX-4 was brittle was more due to the Team version than the GP version, with the shock towers and arms I believe the main culprits. With the changes, The breakage issues haven't been like they were initially. Its also great that you got good 4wd racers who help the newbies, todays newbies are tomorrows veterans.
When my eldest daughter gets a bit older, I plan to get her an RC vehicle and have her race with me if she is interested. She is 4 now, so I figure a few more years and work with her learning to drive the vehicle. Probably a simple BRP just to get used to how steering works and then when offroad starts up I may just pickup another SB for parts support and put a 540 mabuchi in there.
YoungChazz: At your local track I am assuming 4wd is quite the popular class. Do you think people would be interested in trying out a spec ( stock or 19T, whatever works for your track ) class as a demo for a few weeks to see what the interest would be for newbies, etc? I would love to see something about that on www.4wdrc.com .
AZCrazy1: I think some of the issues with people saying the XXX-4 was brittle was more due to the Team version than the GP version, with the shock towers and arms I believe the main culprits. With the changes, The breakage issues haven't been like they were initially. Its also great that you got good 4wd racers who help the newbies, todays newbies are tomorrows veterans.
When my eldest daughter gets a bit older, I plan to get her an RC vehicle and have her race with me if she is interested. She is 4 now, so I figure a few more years and work with her learning to drive the vehicle. Probably a simple BRP just to get used to how steering works and then when offroad starts up I may just pickup another SB for parts support and put a 540 mabuchi in there.
02-09-2005, 10:04 PM
#54
Originally posted by AzCrazy1
Where I race at we have 7 - 10 4 wheelers on a week night and about 15 on a saturday...
Where I race at we have 7 - 10 4 wheelers on a week night and about 15 on a saturday...
I'd love to race my 4wd...period. I spend most of my practice time during a race night just driving my xxx-4 or BJ4 just so I can get some wheel time. After practice is over it gets cleaned at put away until the next week when I'm the only one at the track with a 4wd.
I recently had a bit of a revelation with 4wd... After struggling with the first edition of the xxx-4 for weeks, and then selling it, I recently bought a NIB xxx-4G+ to compare against my BJ4. Now let me say, the Bj4 ROCKS out of the box. Very good kit, and it drives wonderfully with almost no setup chages, so I wasn't expecting much from the G+. I was right...
Out of the box, the G+ sucks badly IMO. It's been several years since I crashed any of my off-road cars so badly that I broke. I broke my G+ in about 6 laps. Ugh. So the next week I thrashed on the setup a bit to see if I could make it a little better. In went a one-way, tossed the rear sway-bar in the toolbox, and changed the angle of the front shocks and the front kick-up. Whoah. Totally different car. More mild, and mucho easier to drive.
Overall I think my G+ now feels just as good as my BJ4. I hope to soon do a real practice day where I can compare my laps, driving one car right after the other, and see which is really faster, if not easier to drive.
Last edited by cartmen34; 02-10-2005 at 07:16 AM.
02-09-2005, 10:20 PM
#55
Tech Regular
iTrader: (3)
If you guys are looking for 4WD racing in the midwest (Southern Illinois specifically) you need to check out Redline RC Raceway! We are getting on average 6 to 12 4 wheelers each weekend for club racing! And we're getting more and more each week! Our website is www.Redline-RC.com
02-10-2005, 05:39 AM
#56
Great to hear about some 4wd racing going on in your area. If you can, go to www.4wdrc.com and post your track, times for racing, as well as the classes you run for 4wd. Direct others who are interested there.
cartmen34: The vehicles you listed on your sig, do you own all of them now? If so and you got some people you trust as buddies at your track, maybe see if any of them would be interested wheeling those vehicles. Just have them agree to a "you break you fix" thing and go and race. Probably set them up with something that isn't full mod either so less chances to break. May be a way to generate interest if people see how well the 4wd vehicles go.
cartmen34: The vehicles you listed on your sig, do you own all of them now? If so and you got some people you trust as buddies at your track, maybe see if any of them would be interested wheeling those vehicles. Just have them agree to a "you break you fix" thing and go and race. Probably set them up with something that isn't full mod either so less chances to break. May be a way to generate interest if people see how well the 4wd vehicles go.
02-10-2005, 07:10 AM
#57
Originally posted by Cain
cartmen34: The vehicles you listed on your sig, do you own all of them now? If so and you got some people you trust as buddies at your track, maybe see if any of them would be interested wheeling those vehicles. Just have them agree to a "you break you fix" thing and go and race. Probably set them up with something that isn't full mod either so less chances to break. May be a way to generate interest if people see how well the 4wd vehicles go.
cartmen34: The vehicles you listed on your sig, do you own all of them now? If so and you got some people you trust as buddies at your track, maybe see if any of them would be interested wheeling those vehicles. Just have them agree to a "you break you fix" thing and go and race. Probably set them up with something that isn't full mod either so less chances to break. May be a way to generate interest if people see how well the 4wd vehicles go.
what is really sad is that I know there are at least 10 guys with a 4wd car, they just never bring it to race. I'm thinking of asking the race director if we could try a "4wd races for 1/2 price", or your 19t idea, or something like that. the problem with that is that, my local track, while very nice, is only known of by word of mouth. He's got no website or even flyers to put up at the area hobby shops. It makes it hard to promote something like that. I'd be more than happy to do a little leg work to get something promoted, if he'd just be willing to actually do something about promoting the class.
02-10-2005, 07:39 AM
#58
Tech Rookie
cartmen34, we race at Competition Hobbies in Tucson. Their website is www.competitionhobbies.net
Last night we had 7 in 4wd. There were 5 XXX4, 1 BJ4 and one X5, pretty good night of racing.
Last night we had 7 in 4wd. There were 5 XXX4, 1 BJ4 and one X5, pretty good night of racing.
02-10-2005, 07:51 AM
#59
Tech Master
How does the X5 match up against the other cars? Is it heavier? How is the durability?
02-10-2005, 07:56 AM
#60
Tech Rookie
I don't know much about the car. The guy that was driving it is pretty green, but it looks like it handles well.