4wd Buggy Racing for 2005
02-02-2005, 05:43 AM
#16
edseb: I agree to a point. A nice driver is tops, but you can be as nice and helpful all you want and the newbie if he feels he can't handle the power he will not race in the class if another class is present. Keep the costs to some point controlled as well as the power ( now, don't get me wrong, we want power, but controllable which full mod isn't for newbies 
) and you will gain interest. 19 turn is the great for the power and speed balance.
I think the transmissions while more complicated than a 2wd buggy or truck, are as complicated as much as a sedan and we all know how big sedans are right now. Especially the stock and 19 turn classes.
About the oneway in the XXX-4, I have read that there is a guy making a heavy duty one that doesn't break. Visit www.4wdrc.com and the X-5 or XXX-4 section I believe has info.
) and you will gain interest. 19 turn is the great for the power and speed balance.I think the transmissions while more complicated than a 2wd buggy or truck, are as complicated as much as a sedan and we all know how big sedans are right now. Especially the stock and 19 turn classes.
About the oneway in the XXX-4, I have read that there is a guy making a heavy duty one that doesn't break. Visit www.4wdrc.com and the X-5 or XXX-4 section I believe has info.
02-02-2005, 10:19 AM
#17
Tech Adept
Apex Models in UK made a HD one-way for the XXX-4/S, but it isn't listed on their website anymore.........
Seems like it's discontinued. Too bad, i planned getting one of those.....
Seems like it's discontinued. Too bad, i planned getting one of those.....
02-03-2005, 11:36 AM
#18
Cain:
I agree with you about the mod vs. 19t for newbies, but the reality is that 4wd just isn't popular and having a second class of them just isn't going to happen. I think we need to work within the issues we have at hand. Most newbies don't have a 19t much less a 4wd, so I'm not sure if that's a practical solution, although in theory it would be good.
I agree with you about the mod vs. 19t for newbies, but the reality is that 4wd just isn't popular and having a second class of them just isn't going to happen. I think we need to work within the issues we have at hand. Most newbies don't have a 19t much less a 4wd, so I'm not sure if that's a practical solution, although in theory it would be good.
02-03-2005, 12:41 PM
#19
edseb: my suggestion isn't a second class. My suggestion is that we have as the primary class 19 turn. After which if the numbers justify it, we move on to a mod class addition. Will this work at all tracks, it really depends on the guys currently running mod on there openness to running 19 Turn as the default class to generate growth overall.
Accessibility to the class right now is part of the equation. reasonable vehicle prices is also a factor. I think however that things are starting to warm up some more in 4wd. We may see some growth this year.
Make it more accessible and you will see a growth in the class through the addition of new blood. If it keeps its elite status tag on the class, it will stay at current levels or worse die out.
I appreciate all comments and ideas!
Accessibility to the class right now is part of the equation. reasonable vehicle prices is also a factor. I think however that things are starting to warm up some more in 4wd. We may see some growth this year.
Make it more accessible and you will see a growth in the class through the addition of new blood. If it keeps its elite status tag on the class, it will stay at current levels or worse die out.
I appreciate all comments and ideas!
02-03-2005, 03:55 PM
#20
cain as i said before why limit the drivers who have different mods and the experience to use the power. why accomadate the beginners. if you feel more in control with a stock or 19t then by all means use it. as the begginers progress they can get into a faster motor. this class is too small to try and change. if and when i go to the mod nats how do i practice using mods against others with 19t at our local track. on our 160' straight an 8 single would eat a 19t alive also havent seen you at any races this winter just last weekend was at tchr in the cities only 5 4wd if we were running 19t there there probably would have been 1 4wd i feel as many drivers you would gain for a spec class you would lose just as many i know i wouldnt race 19t 4wd or like too 4wd should be an open class run brushless stock or mod even 19t later cain
keith
keith
02-03-2005, 07:50 PM
#21
4wd/Brushless = better attendance
No more worries with burning up motors which is the biggest expense with running 4wd. And you'll more than likely get more 1/8 scale guys attending that class with the brushless feeling more like the 1/8 scale since it has no engine braking. Just seems like to me the brushless in the 4wheel is the way to go. Most of the guys at our track don't mind the brushless running against mod 4wd, the Novak is roughly like a 12 turn so noone complains really. And with the extra torque the brushless has, it's just got awesome bottom end. Just my thoughts.
No more worries with burning up motors which is the biggest expense with running 4wd. And you'll more than likely get more 1/8 scale guys attending that class with the brushless feeling more like the 1/8 scale since it has no engine braking. Just seems like to me the brushless in the 4wheel is the way to go. Most of the guys at our track don't mind the brushless running against mod 4wd, the Novak is roughly like a 12 turn so noone complains really. And with the extra torque the brushless has, it's just got awesome bottom end. Just my thoughts.
02-03-2005, 08:01 PM
#22
Keith: I respect your opinion but i think you are missing the point with your statement:
The reason you want to accomadate a beginner is that ultimately those are the people who grow the class. Think about how touring car racing is at this time, do you believe touring car racing would be where it is at today if there wasn't a stock class to begin in?
Look at it this way, if the class is so small, it only affects changing a few minds in an attempt to grow the class. In this instance, being small in number doesn't mean you can't make a change towards something for growth.
The issue here isn't your ability to run mod (and you have great driving ability by the way as I have seen it first hand ). Ultimately the idea here is for the benefit of all to see an overall growth. If the class is only having a few entries, do you really get to practice against a diverse group or are you pretty much just running the track against the clock ala rally racing? When only 3 to 4 turnout, essentially that is what you are doing.
no one will disagree with that and since I have run mods that hot in 4wd before I have experience in that. But remember, we don't race purely in a straight line, and races are won through the turns, jumps, etc. not on the straights. With your skill, I know that isn't an issue with you!
I have been racing touring this winter and since my wife and I alternate our work schedules it doesn't leave much time to travel and race. If you have people local who discuss the rules and agree on a motor, etc. those racers would be in attendence. If the tracks class is fully supported by traveling racers then that is another issue and I agree that it may not be best to spec if the vast majority of the racers are travelers . My idea is more towards local growth.
I understand your concerns and respect your opinion, but you state that guys would just fully drop 4wd if no mod class was available. I respectfully dissagree with you on that point.
I think a majority of people if asked prefer to race in heats and mains when its more than just 3 or 4 guys running against each other. They like a wide variety of fellow racers, vehicle platforms etc.
Is it possible I am wrong? Sure, I don't deny its possible and this may not work for every area. I think where it could have good chance of working is at tracks with racers who are open to the idea, or tracks that have little to no participation in a 4wd buggy class and a group of racers who would be interested in growing the class itself.
My goal here is to throw this out, get people talking and most of all thinking about what they feel will grow the class. Ultimately, the whole point is to grow the class.
I look forward to racing with you keith as I plan to attend as much as possible the point series races at wwnh .
Thank you for your thoughts and for letting me use the T3!
why accomadate the beginners
this class is too small to try and change
if and when i go to the mod nats how do i practice using mods against others with 19t at our local track
on our 160' straight an 8 single would eat a 19t alive
also havent seen you at any races this winter just last weekend was at tchr in the cities only 5 4wd if we were running 19t there there probably would have been 1 4wd i feel as many drivers you would gain for a spec class you would lose just as many i know i wouldnt race 19t 4wd or like too 4wd should be an open class run brushless stock or mod even 19t later cain
I understand your concerns and respect your opinion, but you state that guys would just fully drop 4wd if no mod class was available. I respectfully dissagree with you on that point.
I think a majority of people if asked prefer to race in heats and mains when its more than just 3 or 4 guys running against each other. They like a wide variety of fellow racers, vehicle platforms etc.
Is it possible I am wrong? Sure, I don't deny its possible and this may not work for every area. I think where it could have good chance of working is at tracks with racers who are open to the idea, or tracks that have little to no participation in a 4wd buggy class and a group of racers who would be interested in growing the class itself.
My goal here is to throw this out, get people talking and most of all thinking about what they feel will grow the class. Ultimately, the whole point is to grow the class.
I look forward to racing with you keith as I plan to attend as much as possible the point series races at wwnh .
Thank you for your thoughts and for letting me use the T3!
02-03-2005, 08:03 PM
#23
Juall: Brushless is going to be the future no doubt. I saw alot of guys running the novak system in there vehicles with great sucess. Quite a nice unit though I wish it was smaller. Only thing is convincing people of the benefits versus the initial price. Its true a top end speed and some top end motors come to the price of the system, but convincing guys starting out that this is the way to go has been an issue price wise.
02-03-2005, 08:27 PM
#24
Now I do not own a 4wd but I thought I would give my input. I would say In my opinion keep is a open class. stock mod 19t brushless whatever you want to run run it. I think that would possibly get a better turn out. But I have never ran 4wd elec. Also I know some people who run mod but don't even own a 19t. Also the fargo track is pretty big(don't know if you have seen it yet. pretty nice though!!)
Once again this is just my opinion but it is to keep the class open. I know at TCHR once this winter my cousin ran his old yoke 4wd with a 19t and didnt do to bad and he had ancient batteries.
Once again this is just my opinion but it is to keep the class open. I know at TCHR once this winter my cousin ran his old yoke 4wd with a 19t and didnt do to bad and he had ancient batteries.
02-03-2005, 08:37 PM
#25
karter: thanks for the response and thoughts. If you can get in touch with travis let him know that I got some stuff for race sponsoring to discuss with him.
At the Fargo track, did they run a 2wd 19 Turn class similar to WWNH? If so, how was the turnout?
Turnout at WWNH for that class looked great and the competition was good as well.
I have been down to the track, its a good size.
Do you know if the club down here is still functional? I wouldn't mind bringing this up to gauge some interest.
Just so everyone is clear, I am open to running mod, stock, spec, whatever from my perspective, whatever the rules are set at doesn't bother me. I am just trying to gauge thoughts and interest in what we can do to grow the class and appreciate all opinions.
At the Fargo track, did they run a 2wd 19 Turn class similar to WWNH? If so, how was the turnout?
Turnout at WWNH for that class looked great and the competition was good as well.
I have been down to the track, its a good size.
Do you know if the club down here is still functional? I wouldn't mind bringing this up to gauge some interest.
Just so everyone is clear, I am open to running mod, stock, spec, whatever from my perspective, whatever the rules are set at doesn't bother me. I am just trying to gauge thoughts and interest in what we can do to grow the class and appreciate all opinions.
02-03-2005, 08:47 PM
#26
fargo was either mod or stock depending on crowd.
i am going to send you a email here.
i am going to send you a email here.
02-04-2005, 04:21 AM
#27
Having raced 4wd since about 1986 I feel I can share my opinion here,
IMO a 19T 4wd class at CLUB level would be a great way to boost 4wd numbers. You have to look at why people are reluctant to buy and consistantly run 4wd's.
1) Initial price - This is something that's going to be impossible to fix, the tops 4wds are very expensive and they're not going to get any cheaper.
But on the other hand, touring cars are more expensive and if you look at the trends there it seems as you get into the slower classes, there is more opportunity to run cheaper, older vehicles - the slower the class, the less emphasis there is on new, top of the line gear, in order to be competative - so guys with old XX4's, Schumachers etc or newer, cheaper 4wds (SB sport etc) will be more likely to be competative and less concerned about the performance of their car.
2) Ongoing costs - Here 19T has to win hands down. You're going slower so wear/stress on the car, tyres, motor, batteries is going to be less, MUCH less. Lets face it - 4wd's are expensive to keep running - more fragile, more parts to wear, need better cells etc - so reducing the cost is surely going to open up the class to more drivers.
Of course this depends somewhat on the tracks you race on. In some parts of the world, on bumpy slippery tracks, 4wd's eat through tyres (especially fronts) very quickly - and slowing the cars down means less tyre wear.
The idea of being able to run any motor in an "open" class simply doesn't work - drivers on limited budgets, or limited experience aren't going to race their 19T or stock motor against guys running 9T for very long before they get disappointed with racing - constantly getting blown away down the straights is very frustrating - especially if you have enough talent to keep up through the infield/tight sections.
It's easy for the few Pro 4wd'ers to drop back and race 19T - but it's VERY difficult for the majority of average 4wd'ers to step up to full-blown modified and be competative.
A number of years ago one of the offroad clubs in my state ran a "Clubspec" class for 4wd replacing the Open class. This class was run at both club level and for some regional events. The motor chosen was a 16Triple motor. During the time this class was run, more 4wds were racing than ever before in our state - both experienced racers, newbies, and everything inbetween!
The racing was good, the cars were reliable, and the costs were low - what more could you want
I think people need to see beyond their own opinions/ambitions and look at the bigger picture.
Personally, I would much rather race full blown mod, but if given the choice of racing Mod against 3 people and a Spec class against 16 - then I'll choose the Spec class every time
IMO a 19T 4wd class at CLUB level would be a great way to boost 4wd numbers. You have to look at why people are reluctant to buy and consistantly run 4wd's.
1) Initial price - This is something that's going to be impossible to fix, the tops 4wds are very expensive and they're not going to get any cheaper.
But on the other hand, touring cars are more expensive and if you look at the trends there it seems as you get into the slower classes, there is more opportunity to run cheaper, older vehicles - the slower the class, the less emphasis there is on new, top of the line gear, in order to be competative - so guys with old XX4's, Schumachers etc or newer, cheaper 4wds (SB sport etc) will be more likely to be competative and less concerned about the performance of their car.
2) Ongoing costs - Here 19T has to win hands down. You're going slower so wear/stress on the car, tyres, motor, batteries is going to be less, MUCH less. Lets face it - 4wd's are expensive to keep running - more fragile, more parts to wear, need better cells etc - so reducing the cost is surely going to open up the class to more drivers.
Of course this depends somewhat on the tracks you race on. In some parts of the world, on bumpy slippery tracks, 4wd's eat through tyres (especially fronts) very quickly - and slowing the cars down means less tyre wear.
The idea of being able to run any motor in an "open" class simply doesn't work - drivers on limited budgets, or limited experience aren't going to race their 19T or stock motor against guys running 9T for very long before they get disappointed with racing - constantly getting blown away down the straights is very frustrating - especially if you have enough talent to keep up through the infield/tight sections.
It's easy for the few Pro 4wd'ers to drop back and race 19T - but it's VERY difficult for the majority of average 4wd'ers to step up to full-blown modified and be competative.
A number of years ago one of the offroad clubs in my state ran a "Clubspec" class for 4wd replacing the Open class. This class was run at both club level and for some regional events. The motor chosen was a 16Triple motor. During the time this class was run, more 4wds were racing than ever before in our state - both experienced racers, newbies, and everything inbetween!
The racing was good, the cars were reliable, and the costs were low - what more could you want
I think people need to see beyond their own opinions/ambitions and look at the bigger picture.
Personally, I would much rather race full blown mod, but if given the choice of racing Mod against 3 people and a Spec class against 16 - then I'll choose the Spec class every time
02-04-2005, 04:57 AM
#29
Cain,
If you look at the cost of the system, over lets say a one year period. I know in 4wd with the better buggies we have now you'll go thru what, if you race say 3 times a month, with practice, you'll still go thru about 4-5 motors a year. That's not including the different winds for different track thing either. You'd see your money back within one year from the initial purchase of the brushless. Even if you ran cheap machine mods, that's still 25-30 a pop, so easily 125-150 in just the first year. For someone running say an older XX-4, you'll go thru a motor a month roughly due to the increased drag, as I always got about 3-4 runs on mine and then rebuild. So with the brushless, it may be a tad more expensive up front, but look at it this way, If a beginner gets into racing and buys cheaper gear, more than likely within the first year or so he'll be upgrading/selling the cheaper gear to become more competitive. The brushless is gonna be cheaper no matter what for a rookie. Especially when it gives them exactly what they need for cheap price: unlimited practice without burning up motors. I've had my brushless every since the Novak came out and have really enjoyed it. It takes the big money factor out of racing to a degree and levels the playing field, which for alot of us is a big stumbling block. It's always been sad to be at the track with the budget for 1-2 stock motors and cheaper batteries while the guy on the table next to you is changing his motors every round with $100 packs galore.
Everyone buy the brushless, and let us determine what is legal for racing. You let 20 folks show up at the track with a brushless, and not one race director would turn away that kind of business over a sanctioning body
If you look at the cost of the system, over lets say a one year period. I know in 4wd with the better buggies we have now you'll go thru what, if you race say 3 times a month, with practice, you'll still go thru about 4-5 motors a year. That's not including the different winds for different track thing either. You'd see your money back within one year from the initial purchase of the brushless. Even if you ran cheap machine mods, that's still 25-30 a pop, so easily 125-150 in just the first year. For someone running say an older XX-4, you'll go thru a motor a month roughly due to the increased drag, as I always got about 3-4 runs on mine and then rebuild. So with the brushless, it may be a tad more expensive up front, but look at it this way, If a beginner gets into racing and buys cheaper gear, more than likely within the first year or so he'll be upgrading/selling the cheaper gear to become more competitive. The brushless is gonna be cheaper no matter what for a rookie. Especially when it gives them exactly what they need for cheap price: unlimited practice without burning up motors. I've had my brushless every since the Novak came out and have really enjoyed it. It takes the big money factor out of racing to a degree and levels the playing field, which for alot of us is a big stumbling block. It's always been sad to be at the track with the budget for 1-2 stock motors and cheaper batteries while the guy on the table next to you is changing his motors every round with $100 packs galore.
Everyone buy the brushless, and let us determine what is legal for racing. You let 20 folks show up at the track with a brushless, and not one race director would turn away that kind of business over a sanctioning body
02-04-2005, 05:42 AM
#30
Thanks for the comments guys I really appreciate them and keep the discussion coming.
bender: Thats great that there was a spec class going at one time and what you posted shares alot of the beliefs I have concerning growth of the class.
Juall: you are not going to get much dissagreement from me on the benefits of brushless systems. I have seen them perform and its nice not to have to work on the motor, etc. I will say this, compared to the cost of buying several full mod motors, 19 turn has the price cost beat. If Orion can get a V2 19 Turn out to the USA that isn't down on power against what we have now, I can see the maintenance going down even more. Some of the new brush compounds coming out are also boosting wear time and still keeping power up. I plan to try that F-brush and see how it goes as I have been hearing good things about it.
If I remember correctly, you can limit the power that goes to the Novak brushless motor correct?
I will say this, that new LRP if it does indeed work for brushed and brushless would be a great system to go with just by the fact it does the best of both worlds.
bender: Thats great that there was a spec class going at one time and what you posted shares alot of the beliefs I have concerning growth of the class.
Juall: you are not going to get much dissagreement from me on the benefits of brushless systems. I have seen them perform and its nice not to have to work on the motor, etc. I will say this, compared to the cost of buying several full mod motors, 19 turn has the price cost beat. If Orion can get a V2 19 Turn out to the USA that isn't down on power against what we have now, I can see the maintenance going down even more. Some of the new brush compounds coming out are also boosting wear time and still keeping power up. I plan to try that F-brush and see how it goes as I have been hearing good things about it.
If I remember correctly, you can limit the power that goes to the Novak brushless motor correct?
I will say this, that new LRP if it does indeed work for brushed and brushless would be a great system to go with just by the fact it does the best of both worlds.