2011 ROAR Short Course Rules..
05-04-2011, 12:47 PM
#16
Why is it so hard for someone from ROAR to just post a message saying: "550 motors are approved in 4wd short course" OR "550 motors are NOT approved in short course". It isn't like they are making some life changing decision that is going to affect the world economy or cause World War III. Either they are legal or they aren't...
05-04-2011, 12:54 PM
#17
Doing what wrong? I don't race stock, but when I look at the results, it is almost as fast as mod especially considering stock has just devolved to a 2nd class for expert drivers. Stock no longer equates to beginner.
There used to be legitimate difference between stock motors and mod motors. Now there is not hence the issue with the ESC Timing, etc. The problem is that the technology has removed any difference between stock and mod for the most part. If it is about beginners vs expert, then group based on skillsets. If it is about costs, that is also a non-issue as costs are not out of control ESC/motors pretty much all cost the same.
There used to be legitimate difference between stock motors and mod motors. Now there is not hence the issue with the ESC Timing, etc. The problem is that the technology has removed any difference between stock and mod for the most part. If it is about beginners vs expert, then group based on skillsets. If it is about costs, that is also a non-issue as costs are not out of control ESC/motors pretty much all cost the same.
Maybe on a small track I'll agree with you, but on any medium to large size track if mod isn't going dropping significantly faster lap times then something is wrong even with Stock classes using boost.
Just so we are clear the stock i'm talking about is 17.5 turn.
05-04-2011, 12:59 PM
#18
4WD SCT should be an open motor/esc/battery class. Simple and less restrictive. There are too many manufacturers, driving styles and surface conditions all which necessitate different motor/esc and battery styles. ROAR is oblivious to what's going on at the local level. This is exactly why racing in the 80's and early 90's lost a lot of the fun. Too much regulation which stymied progress. It was the bashers who didn't care about rules and just wanted to make their cars better and faster that helped progress the sport. As more and more bashers came in and racers that had to adhere to strict rules began to wain, the companies finally started producing product that made the cars better and faster dedicated to the "bashers". So, they couldn't race, they came to the track on practice days and would beat the "fast guys". Sure they were "cheating" but not really, they were just running the latest technologies. Bottom line, ROAR should be helping to advance the hobby, not keeping it in the dark ages. And not allowing 4-pole motors, that's keeping it in the dark ages. I really don't understand ROAR's thinking. I know you can't please all the people all the time, but ROAR sure finds a way to please none of the people almost all of the time. I'm so glad that my track doesn't adhere to ROAR standards. I can tell you this, if they did, they'd be out of business. Why would ROAR want to run rules that diminishes turn out? I thought they're supposed to help the hobby not hurt it.
One day, hopefully we'll see a more cohesive and forward thinking governing body.
One day, hopefully we'll see a more cohesive and forward thinking governing body.
I have said it in many threads ROAR isn't good for the Hobby, they allow some classes the tools to run good without damaging ESC/Motors/Batteries but putting a tiny 540 motor in a 4x4 6.5+ truck is ludicrous and will damage any set up out today. If they would allow 4 or 6 pole motors it would be fine (I guess) I don't have money to buy a new motor every race, so I would never buy a "ROAR Approved" motor for 4x4 SCT. They lose all credibility with me, I am brand new to this hobby and I can tell you now if I had to follow these rules I would have got out. I'm glad most tracks bend those rules but why should they have too? Why can't they make legitimate rules? I mean 36.02mm max diameter how did they come up with that number??? I mean REALLY?? I should be ab;e to go to any track and know the "rules" but they refuse to make ones tht people can actually follow. Also seems also silly not to allow 90% of the tires out. I get it's based on the OG Slash but why?? Let's Evolve!! Also Real SCT use wings and fins so why can't RC?
05-04-2011, 01:08 PM
#19
They must not be on any better standing with ROAR than the rest of us 
Amain lists the 4 pole castle motor as "approved" (I think they changed it to "pending approval") even though I cannot see anywhere on Castle's site that makes this claim... an Amain rep has told me that "it will be approved by the end of the month.
Tekin at least just says "Race Legal" which is truthful...RCPS allows it, and most clubs allow it...
Sigh...
Last edited by BlueGlowBoy; 05-04-2011 at 01:37 PM.
05-04-2011, 01:30 PM
#20
For more scale realism, ROAR should implement a min and max power to weight ratio similar to what the TORC series does. TORC series pro 4x4 trucks have 750-900 HP with a min weight of 4,000 lbs (This is actually more power to weight than most our rc trucks).
This can easily be done in the rc world. Motor power is simply motor torque times motor rpm. Regulating motor rpm is easy, that's simply kV X V where kV is motor rpm per volt and V is battery voltage.
Regulating motor torque requires kT or motor power ratings to be published which not all motor manufacturers due. kT is the motor torque produced per ampere of current. So if we had a kT X A regulation, that would give us the max torque a motor can produce.
With a power to weight regulation, we will all have the same relative power under the hood regardless of the battery and motor setup we choose to use. This gives us set limits on motor, battery cell count, battery capacity, and battery C ratings.
Now if we can only get manufacturers to actually publish truthfull data about their motors and batteries.
This can easily be done in the rc world. Motor power is simply motor torque times motor rpm. Regulating motor rpm is easy, that's simply kV X V where kV is motor rpm per volt and V is battery voltage.
Regulating motor torque requires kT or motor power ratings to be published which not all motor manufacturers due. kT is the motor torque produced per ampere of current. So if we had a kT X A regulation, that would give us the max torque a motor can produce.
With a power to weight regulation, we will all have the same relative power under the hood regardless of the battery and motor setup we choose to use. This gives us set limits on motor, battery cell count, battery capacity, and battery C ratings.
Now if we can only get manufacturers to actually publish truthfull data about their motors and batteries.
05-04-2011, 02:31 PM
#22
I have said it in many threads ROAR isn't good for the Hobby, they allow some classes the tools to run good without damaging ESC/Motors/Batteries but putting a tiny 540 motor in a 4x4 6.5+ truck is ludicrous and will damage any set up out today. If they would allow 4 or 6 pole motors it would be fine (I guess) I don't have money to buy a new motor every race, so I would never buy a "ROAR Approved" motor for 4x4 SCT.
The question you might want to ask is do you want the 4x4 SCT to be a durable Basher that you club race and is easy to drive or do you want to have the class move to lighter weight components that make the 4x4 SCT class more like the other MOD 10th scale classes. ROAR is a racing body.
Keith.
05-05-2011, 07:50 AM
#23
My son qualified 2nd at the nationals last year with a Jammin SCRT10. It ran a 7.5 540 Novak Ballistic and GTB. He used a Thunder Power 50c 2S lipo. He ran all the same electronics for the Futaba Electric Challenge where he placed first. Everything survived but the lipos did get hot along with the electronics. Yes you need to really watch your temps and run time, but this would be like all the other Mod classes in my opinion. This winter I built a Hybrid carbon fiber version that is near the ROAR minimum weight. It is very fast with a Kinetic, 540 and 65C Thunderpower 2S lipo, and it does not get melt down hot. Temps are managable but it IS harder to drive just like a MOD 4x4 buggy and insane fast if you can drive it.
The question you might want to ask is do you want the 4x4 SCT to be a durable Basher that you club race and is easy to drive or do you want to have the class move to lighter weight components that make the 4x4 SCT class more like the other MOD 10th scale classes. ROAR is a racing body.
Keith.
The question you might want to ask is do you want the 4x4 SCT to be a durable Basher that you club race and is easy to drive or do you want to have the class move to lighter weight components that make the 4x4 SCT class more like the other MOD 10th scale classes. ROAR is a racing body.
Keith.
Hot batteries are a sign that the packs are unable or straining to deliver the power the motor and ESC are demanding. If 1/10 ran on 3s or even 4s, there wouldn't even be a need for people to get higher C rated batteries. You could easily get away with running 20C packs. You also wouldn't get that lag in power the last 1 minute of the race when running 2s.
This is why many people like running higher voltage because your ESC and batteries do not have to work as hard. Your stuff will last longer. Having to use fans and check temps is a sign that the cars are improperly setup. High temps and the like were a necessary evil back in they day but given current technology those problems are inexcusable at this point, even in 4wd Mod. The issue is the rules won't allow usage of BETTER EQUIPMENT such as 4 pole motors, higher voltage.
The point is the rules need to reflect today's technology realities.
05-05-2011, 08:00 AM
#24
I guess to me if the ultimate point of all this is to promote RC Racing, going with rules that improve the reliability and safety of the gear to be used would be the first priority. Again, this is just me, but it seems you get more people racing when there stuff is more reliable, not less.
05-05-2011, 08:22 AM
#25
My son qualified 2nd at the nationals last year with a Jammin SCRT10. It ran a 7.5 540 Novak Ballistic and GTB. He used a Thunder Power 50c 2S lipo. He ran all the same electronics for the Futaba Electric Challenge where he placed first. Everything survived but the lipos did get hot along with the electronics. Yes you need to really watch your temps and run time, but this would be like all the other Mod classes in my opinion. This winter I built a Hybrid carbon fiber version that is near the ROAR minimum weight. It is very fast with a Kinetic, 540 and 65C Thunderpower 2S lipo, and it does not get melt down hot. Temps are managable but it IS harder to drive just like a MOD 4x4 buggy and insane fast if you can drive it.
The question you might want to ask is do you want the 4x4 SCT to be a durable Basher that you club race and is easy to drive or do you want to have the class move to lighter weight components that make the 4x4 SCT class more like the other MOD 10th scale classes. ROAR is a racing body.
Keith.
The question you might want to ask is do you want the 4x4 SCT to be a durable Basher that you club race and is easy to drive or do you want to have the class move to lighter weight components that make the 4x4 SCT class more like the other MOD 10th scale classes. ROAR is a racing body.
Keith.
Roar needs to bite it and say ANY 540-550 is ok in this class and be done with it, including 4poles.
05-05-2011, 08:44 AM
#27
No one is saying the 540s won't work, however, many people don't like our equipment to be on the edge of its capability when it doesn't have to be. I like my stuff done right, not just good enough.
Hot batteries are a sign that the packs are unable or straining to deliver the power the motor and ESC are demanding. If 1/10 ran on 3s or even 4s, there wouldn't even be a need for people to get higher C rated batteries. You could easily get away with running 20C packs. You also wouldn't get that lag in power the last 1 minute of the race when running 2s.
This is why many people like running higher voltage because your ESC and batteries do not have to work as hard. Your stuff will last longer. Having to use fans and check temps is a sign that the cars are improperly setup. High temps and the like were a necessary evil back in they day but given current technology those problems are inexcusable at this point, even in 4wd Mod. The issue is the rules won't allow usage of BETTER EQUIPMENT such as 4 pole motors, higher voltage.
The point is the rules need to reflect today's technology realities.
Hot batteries are a sign that the packs are unable or straining to deliver the power the motor and ESC are demanding. If 1/10 ran on 3s or even 4s, there wouldn't even be a need for people to get higher C rated batteries. You could easily get away with running 20C packs. You also wouldn't get that lag in power the last 1 minute of the race when running 2s.
This is why many people like running higher voltage because your ESC and batteries do not have to work as hard. Your stuff will last longer. Having to use fans and check temps is a sign that the cars are improperly setup. High temps and the like were a necessary evil back in they day but given current technology those problems are inexcusable at this point, even in 4wd Mod. The issue is the rules won't allow usage of BETTER EQUIPMENT such as 4 pole motors, higher voltage.
The point is the rules need to reflect today's technology realities.
Not all of the 4x4's are as light as the scrt10.. 540 2 pole motors are too small or on the edge for racing in several of the available 4wd's.. as I recall even ae's pro blew his 540 racing at the cactus classic :P Limiting to motors desiged to push a 2wd buggy or truck at 1/2 the weight is crazy. This isn't for bashing, it's for racing and not for people who want too much, I want just enough but I don't want to have to temp my motor every 5min and take brakes every 7minutes and have to replace a rotor if I push for a 10 min main.
Roar needs to bite it and say ANY 540-550 is ok in this class and be done with it, including 4poles.
Roar needs to bite it and say ANY 540-550 is ok in this class and be done with it, including 4poles.
UPS just brought Jason's 4x4 SC10 a few minutes ago so in any case the SCRT10 will be shelved and we will see how the AE chassis weighs in and works.
See everyone at the races, Keith.
05-05-2011, 08:47 AM
#28
You guys are all getting worked up over this issue. The rules that are quoted on this thread are not necessarily set in stone. While everyone likes to simply bash ROAR right out of the gate understand that ROAR is full of a group of enthusiasts just as yourself and will listen and even take part in a calm, intelligent 2 way conversation if you allow them to.
I have confidence that ROAR is able to understand the weight and load that this platform can place on a standard 540 motor. They've seen the options available to the class in regard to power plants and will likely make a ruling/decision based off of that data.
Patience grasshopper....
I have confidence that ROAR is able to understand the weight and load that this platform can place on a standard 540 motor. They've seen the options available to the class in regard to power plants and will likely make a ruling/decision based off of that data.
Patience grasshopper....
05-05-2011, 09:09 AM
#30
It's not breaking the class either by keeping it 4s for the moment. Things change over time we just have to be patient. Not everything can be established in an on demand fashion.