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Old 02-26-2014, 05:57 PM   #13891
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Ahhh! I totally understand. Last time I tried on road I thought I think I need jumps. I like the speed but after a while I think I felt a little hypnotized going around in circles. (not oval but ya know) I need to actually race, I've only driven them a bit. I also want it for my garage. It's a huge parking garage in an apartment complex

What kind of progressives are you running? I like the Avid springs although I wish they made one level beyond purple stiffer. I feel like I could use this on my 410. I've experimented with Purple up front and red in the rear on really high traction surfaces. Especially when I'm running slicks.

are you running converted 12mm front axles (RB6?) so you can use B4 style wheels or do you use standard durango wheels with the bearing inside? Thus allowing you to adjust the trailing amount?
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:35 PM   #13892
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Originally Posted by 13Maschine View Post
Ahhh! I totally understand. Last time I tried on road I thought I think I need jumps. I like the speed but after a while I think I felt a little hypnotized going around in circles. (not oval but ya know) I need to actually race, I've only driven them a bit. I also want it for my garage. It's a huge parking garage in an apartment complex

What kind of progressives are you running? I like the Avid springs although I wish they made one level beyond purple stiffer. I feel like I could use this on my 410. I've experimented with Purple up front and red in the rear on really high traction surfaces. Especially when I'm running slicks.

are you running converted 12mm front axles (RB6?) so you can use B4 style wheels or do you use standard durango wheels with the bearing inside? Thus allowing you to adjust the trailing amount?
LOL, think we should be on the 410 thread. I do run Avid Purple up front. Yellow Rear on my 410. However, I like the TLR low frequency for indoor on my 210. Pink front / yellow rear. The range is closer together for better fine tune adjustments. If I was to run Avid in the front for the 210, it would be the white spring. Maybe yellow fronts but that would be the hardest I would run.

I also use the stock rims so I can go to 3mm trailing on clay tracks. With the trailing adjustment, going to 0 makes it the most aggressive and probably better for carpet and high traction smooth tracks. But its best to start working your way from 4mm down. On carpet 0 to 2 works awesome.
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Old 02-26-2014, 07:45 PM   #13893
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Your springs settings makes sense for rear motor I would think. Not much weight up front so you don't need heavy springs. I think where I'm headed is a 60/40 weight distribution with mid motor so a little heavier springs. White<yellow<red<purple right?

I feel like my conversion to 12mm RB6 axles up front has taken away the turn in I want with mid motor. I can get there with a little bit of brake on the hairpins and a little anti squat it seems but I'm going to try some tires on regular rims. I just prefer to run the JConcepts inverse rim. It's a two piece. The inside is black. Love em.
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Old 02-26-2014, 09:53 PM   #13894
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Your springs settings makes sense for rear motor I would think. Not much weight up front so you don't need heavy springs. I think where I'm headed is a 60/40 weight distribution with mid motor so a little heavier springs. White<yellow<red<purple right?

I feel like my conversion to 12mm RB6 axles up front has taken away the turn in I want with mid motor. I can get there with a little bit of brake on the hairpins and a little anti squat it seems but I'm going to try some tires on regular rims. I just prefer to run the JConcepts inverse rim. It's a two piece. The inside is black. Love em.
Reducing trailing or making it inline will definitely make your steering more aggressive. You can also try putting 1mm shim in front of the caster block and having 3 shims in the back as opposed to the stock setting of 4mm. That will give you a lot of steering.. Depends on how much you need. Reducing trailing is less aggressive of a change than the shims.
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:15 AM   #13895
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Do you mean making the wheelbase longer? I have my caster blocks centered in the suspension ARM right now….

Thanks!
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:13 AM   #13896
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Since I look at things differently, here's my take on steering.

The smoother and higher grip the track (blue groove clay for example), the more you favor trailing steering. The rougher and looser the track material (dirt for example), the more you favor inline steering.

The smoother and higher grip the track, the less steering caster. The rougher and looser the track, the more steering caster.

As an example of how I'd setup a car, if it were loose dirt, I may run 30 degree caster with inline steering. For blue groove, I may run 20 degree caster with -4mm trailing. I however, will never run what most people do which is 30 degree caster with trailing. I also would never ever go beyond 30 degrees.

I know some people say that more caster is more turn in steering with less corner exit steering and that less caster is less turn in steering with more exit steering. That is mostly true but is situation dependent. The corner exit part is always true. This is what I care about most. Corner entry steering I find less critical since static weight distribution and braking force have a larger effect. I want to get on the throttle as soon as possible which means corner exit steering is most critical.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:25 AM   #13897
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We always appreciate your input Fred!
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:26 AM   #13898
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FredSwain = JEDI MASTER TUNER
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:33 AM   #13899
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I've gone back and fourth between 25 degrees and 30 degrees on my 210 by doing the mod and using cut inserts from the rear hubs. I haven't tried 20 degrees. It usually seems like I want a little more turn in and a little more forward traction on exit so I can get on the throttle sooner. My last setup with the shorty pack all the way back next to the motor in MM4 has great forward bite but I was looking for a bit more turn in. It's close. That's the setup I posted above….

I am using the truck spindles though so my bearings are internal and I can't adjust trailing vs inline at the axle. I can move the whole caster block though by moving the spacers between my suspension arms and caster block. I am considering mounting up some tires on regular rims with bearings and going back to adjustable axles, I will just have to live with regular one piece rims on the front.

As always thanks for your help!

Here's a link to the mod I did up front for axle, just in case someone is curious. http://www.petitrc.com/setup/durango...0_FrontHexMod/
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:36 AM   #13900
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Are you running a ball diff or gear diff? What oil if gear, or how tight if ball?
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:00 AM   #13901
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The reason I don't like the turn in explanation for more caster is a simple one. If more is better, what would happen if you ran 90 degrees of caster? Obviously nothing since you'd just be laying the tops of the wheels over. You'd have no steering. As caster is increased, the angle of the tread to the ground is also increased with steering angle. Too little and the tire folds over on the outer edge. Too much and the inside edge gets all the force applied to it and the outer edge may not generate any grip. It's a balancing act. The key of course is to have as much tread on the ground at all times as possible. Even the foams you run and the tire compound can affect which amount of caster works best. One thing that more caster always does is to reduce the total amount of steering throw that the tire has in relation to the ground. That's why they say that more caster is less exit steering. It is for precisely this reason.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:28 AM   #13902
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fred, I've been testing both ball diff and gear diffs. Different oils in the gear diff. I'm at 7K right now and I've tested as low as 3K. 5K seems to diff out too often. I'm used to the feel of a ball diff in a 2wd so it's a little strange. I usually run a little tighter on the ball diff because I run mod. I also keep my ball diffs silky smooth. I polish the rings and use ceramic balls.

Can you talk about your thoughts on moving the caster block forward in the suspension arm (making the wheelbase longer?)
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Old 02-27-2014, 11:48 AM   #13903
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I don't look at that as a tuning aid. It isn't one. It's used to correct geometry. This may be a bit hard to visualize without a picture. Let's say that we have our car sitting up on a stand. Any height. Let's say it's 2". The point being that it gives us a chassis that is level in relation to the ground. That's what counts. Now lets say we have our suspension arms completely level. To visualize what level is, draw an imaginary line from the inner to outer hinge pin. This line needs to be parallel to the ground. A straight arm would be completely level in this scenario. Now, measure the distance from the ground to the centerline of the axles. Are they the same front and rear? They should be.

The front end has a nose kick. In our case it's 25 degrees. If we move the axle backwards, yes we shorten the wheelbase but we also lower the axle in relation to the ground. Let's say that we have an inline axle running all spacers behind, giving us the longest wheelbase for that axle. If we move the axle back 1mm, we have actually shortened the wheelbase by .91mm and lowered the axle height by .42mm. If we ran the axle all the way back with all spacers in front, we'd actually have shortened the wheelbase over the full long by 2.72mm but more importantly lowered the axle height by 1.27mm. The reason why the spacers are even there is only to keep the location of the axle in the same relative position regardless of how much trail is run. This keeps not only the wheelbase the same but more importantly the axle height the same. This was never intended as a tuning aid to change wheelbase and should never be treated as such. Run it the way Durango says to.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:22 PM   #13904
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Here is an interesting read on the subject of trailing vs inline.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vr6cj View Post
Kit comes with trailing.

Here's a qoute on the subject.

The trailing is a bit more forgiving when the surface is rough. It also tends to suit heavy handed throttle input. If you like to steer with the rear wheels, using your horsepower and brakes, then trailing likely will suit you best. (Also, since this is an RTR and most novice drivers treat the throttle like an on/off switch, this is the std. setup). If you like laser precision lines and smooth throttle delivery, perhaps inline? The trailing will deliver more steering on exit where the inline is gives more initial or entry, off-power steering. The bump steer is also affected which changes the cornering characteristics. So some drivers may notice or some track situations may make the bump steering effect more noticeable with inline vs. trailing. While they are independent adjustments, they will definitely affect one another. So, you may need to explore bump steer washers in combination with steering block changes.

It's all about breaking down the corner into segments and figuring out what you like or need. So far, most guys are complaining about needing more steering. But I've yet to hear them breakdown their corner for me. When you're using the trailing, you need to slow up into corners more and really attack the exit. Where as with inline you may be able to attack at entry and steer inside of someone. The flip side is then you have to watch your exit if you push out towards the exit or if the truck you just passed is on your bumper or worse pushing you (spinning you?). Not to mention if you loop the truck upon entry.

It is also something that can be tailored to specific tracks or track layouts. At OC/RC, I did some A/B comparison's with roughly equivalent setups on the same layout, one with inline and one with trailing. I could do very similar lap times, but they way I went about achieving those times was completely different. Especially when you're passing trucks or have someone on your bumper, you have to decide if you'd rather drive strapped, hanging it out (trailing) vs. methodically and protecting your line (inline). At the end of the straight, they had a berm on the outer line that had a nice feed onto the triple that also had an inside lane with no berm. With the trailing I'd just let the truck ride the berm and the build speed on exit to take the triple. With the inline setup, I could literally steer inside of guys who were riding the berm but needed to almost block them once I made the pass and landed the triple. With the inline, I also needed to slow down more at the end of the straight to turn in that hard, but it was the "short" way around the corner. With the trailing, I could almost just let off slightly and literally just "throw the truck in there" and it would drift a bit once the turn was initiated. Either way was fast, I just had to choose which would let me pass more trucks.

So the idea is to really analyze where your handling strengths and weakness are to capitalize on where it's good and minimize the weaknesses through driving and line choices. That in combination with tailoring the link lengths to your taste or driving style is pretty powerful. The links and the blocks can dramatically alter the dynamics of the corner.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:41 PM   #13905
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It is actually pretty easy to see why he says that a trailing steer setup has more corner entry. Anyone can try this to see for themselves. Setup the car with in line steering. Now with the car on, placed on a hard surface, turn the wheel all the way in either direction. Pay attention to how little the front of the car moves. Now switch to full trailing steering and repeat. The front of the car moves noticeably more left and right.
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