80LikesDurango DEX210 Thread
10-26-2016, 12:17 AM
Tech Addict
Alan,
Good luck tomorrow. Looking forward to see what happens. Thinks for jumping on our thread!!
Wally
Good luck tomorrow. Looking forward to see what happens. Thinks for jumping on our thread!!
Wally
10-26-2016, 06:39 AM
+1 good luck.
Honestly if team durango who have just done what they said they were going to do for the local racers when dropping the whole pro team, it may have worked. Sadly, seemed more like a cost cutting measure that never had any intention of doing what they said.
At this point, can they right the ship? yes they can. But they need to be honest about who they want to be. In the past people I know who ran durango ran it as it was a top performing vehicle supported by pro racers. Did they have issues? Yes but they were things you could kind of go along with from a race perspective.
To me, some things I would like to see going forward:
- Get a real pro race team going again, get a true world class top driver
- Go through your kits and give it a big overhaul. If there is something that is a common durability upgrade (example, exotek alloy hexes) include them. I rather spend a bit more for quality than you nickel and dime me after the fact or have me at the mercy of the aftermarket. You also should have manual and box art work that makes me know its a new kit, not an old one with some parts thrown in.
- Innovate!
- Eliminate the whole part tree stuff that is right now is excessive. We should be buying 1 specific part and get parts on a tree that isn't even for the same car. If Intech can do it for basically the same part, you can certainly do it.
- standardize your wheels with what a popular company uses (ex- Associated).
there are other things I can think of but just some things that stood out.
Honestly if team durango who have just done what they said they were going to do for the local racers when dropping the whole pro team, it may have worked. Sadly, seemed more like a cost cutting measure that never had any intention of doing what they said.
At this point, can they right the ship? yes they can. But they need to be honest about who they want to be. In the past people I know who ran durango ran it as it was a top performing vehicle supported by pro racers. Did they have issues? Yes but they were things you could kind of go along with from a race perspective.
To me, some things I would like to see going forward:
- Get a real pro race team going again, get a true world class top driver
- Go through your kits and give it a big overhaul. If there is something that is a common durability upgrade (example, exotek alloy hexes) include them. I rather spend a bit more for quality than you nickel and dime me after the fact or have me at the mercy of the aftermarket. You also should have manual and box art work that makes me know its a new kit, not an old one with some parts thrown in.
- Innovate!
- Eliminate the whole part tree stuff that is right now is excessive. We should be buying 1 specific part and get parts on a tree that isn't even for the same car. If Intech can do it for basically the same part, you can certainly do it.
- standardize your wheels with what a popular company uses (ex- Associated).
there are other things I can think of but just some things that stood out.
Last edited by Cain; 10-26-2016 at 06:54 AM.
10-26-2016, 08:53 AM
Tech Addict
+1 good luck.
Honestly if team durango who have just done what they said they were going to do for the local racers when dropping the whole pro team, it may have worked. Sadly, seemed more like a cost cutting measure that never had any intention of doing what they said.
At this point, can they right the ship? yes they can. But they need to be honest about who they want to be. In the past people I know who ran durango ran it as it was a top performing vehicle supported by pro racers. Did they have issues? Yes but they were things you could kind of go along with from a race perspective.
To me, some things I would like to see going forward:
- Get a real pro race team going again, get a true world class top driver
- Go through your kits and give it a big overhaul. If there is something that is a common durability upgrade (example, exotek alloy hexes) include them. I rather spend a bit more for quality than you nickel and dime me after the fact or have me at the mercy of the aftermarket. You also should have manual and box art work that makes me know its a new kit, not an old one with some parts thrown in.
- Innovate!
- Eliminate the whole part tree stuff that is right now is excessive. We should be buying 1 specific part and get parts on a tree that isn't even for the same car. If Intech can do it for basically the same part, you can certainly do it.
- standardize your wheels with what a popular company uses (ex- Associated).
there are other things I can think of but just some things that stood out.
Honestly if team durango who have just done what they said they were going to do for the local racers when dropping the whole pro team, it may have worked. Sadly, seemed more like a cost cutting measure that never had any intention of doing what they said.
At this point, can they right the ship? yes they can. But they need to be honest about who they want to be. In the past people I know who ran durango ran it as it was a top performing vehicle supported by pro racers. Did they have issues? Yes but they were things you could kind of go along with from a race perspective.
To me, some things I would like to see going forward:
- Get a real pro race team going again, get a true world class top driver
- Go through your kits and give it a big overhaul. If there is something that is a common durability upgrade (example, exotek alloy hexes) include them. I rather spend a bit more for quality than you nickel and dime me after the fact or have me at the mercy of the aftermarket. You also should have manual and box art work that makes me know its a new kit, not an old one with some parts thrown in.
- Innovate!
- Eliminate the whole part tree stuff that is right now is excessive. We should be buying 1 specific part and get parts on a tree that isn't even for the same car. If Intech can do it for basically the same part, you can certainly do it.
- standardize your wheels with what a popular company uses (ex- Associated).
there are other things I can think of but just some things that stood out.
It's really all a shame due to the history of TD. The guys had a vision of a premium race brand, split from another premium brand to do it, and still to this day are making really high quality, smartly designed vehicles. So far I've had a pretty good experience with them, but yes I've had to be resourceful to do it. Some would see that as a deal breaker for sure.
10-26-2016, 09:49 AM
its a tough go for sure, especially when you see the cool things the cars have and you enjoy them. Right now I am down to the 1/10 4wd offerings (dex410v5 and the similar desc410v2) and would have had the 1/10 2wd dex210F probably if I didn't wiff on a deal as it shares stuff with the dex410v5.
Will see how this winter goes, was so tempted to pick up that 3 pack of 2wd durango SCTs but then had to recall the state of things with them.
Once you settle on a setup that you like please post, it would be cool to see a recent one that doesn't use the shorty mod that for what was left of the team seemed the "unofficial" way to go.
Anyone know what Travis is not running these days?
Will see how this winter goes, was so tempted to pick up that 3 pack of 2wd durango SCTs but then had to recall the state of things with them.
Once you settle on a setup that you like please post, it would be cool to see a recent one that doesn't use the shorty mod that for what was left of the team seemed the "unofficial" way to go.
Anyone know what Travis is not running these days?
10-26-2016, 10:50 AM
Tech Addict
its a tough go for sure, especially when you see the cool things the cars have and you enjoy them. Right now I am down to the 1/10 4wd offerings (dex410v5 and the similar desc410v2) and would have had the 1/10 2wd dex210F probably if I didn't wiff on a deal as it shares stuff with the dex410v5.
Will see how this winter goes, was so tempted to pick up that 3 pack of 2wd durango SCTs but then had to recall the state of things with them.
Once you settle on a setup that you like please post, it would be cool to see a recent one that doesn't use the shorty mod that for what was left of the team seemed the "unofficial" way to go.
Anyone know what Travis is not running these days?
Will see how this winter goes, was so tempted to pick up that 3 pack of 2wd durango SCTs but then had to recall the state of things with them.
Once you settle on a setup that you like please post, it would be cool to see a recent one that doesn't use the shorty mod that for what was left of the team seemed the "unofficial" way to go.
Anyone know what Travis is not running these days?
10-26-2016, 11:41 AM
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This is what I have heard about Durango. Great Planes bought them so they can have a place to make the Arrma crap at and compete against Traxxas. Supposedly this is why they bought Durango as it wasn't to have a competitive car or race cars but to make RTR stuff and try to hang with Traxxas..........which they won't do. All GP does promote the Arrma crap on their site everytime you log in to order. I guess trying to mimic another R/C companies game plan is the greatest form of flattery.
Are shop spends about 50k a year with GP and you email them and they won't even answer you back when you email and ask about Durango. Kinda sucks that your distributor could give a shit about its customers but then again that is most businesses nowadays.
Are shop spends about 50k a year with GP and you email them and they won't even answer you back when you email and ask about Durango. Kinda sucks that your distributor could give a shit about its customers but then again that is most businesses nowadays.
10-26-2016, 12:48 PM
Talking to some folks with at least the arrma stuff that looks similar to the durango stuff they actually like it a lot. Heck, I know I would have liked my dex8 and desc10 more if it had gone the simple route the arrma went with its center diff setup.
Looking forward to what you report Alan_r. You take any videos too? would be cool to see.
Looking forward to what you report Alan_r. You take any videos too? would be cool to see.
10-26-2016, 03:20 PM
10-26-2016, 05:19 PM
Tech Addict
Man, I had started to type up a nice juicy write up of today's happenings and half way through, my "free" Windows 10 upgraded laptop froze on me and I lost it all....so it's back to typing on this HTC 10 and it's horrible auto correct.
Let's just say......wow.I spent the morning working with an 80% dialed in, LRP 7.5 powered RC10T5M, them moved on to a completely dialed Tekin 13.5 powered RC10 World's Car before getting to the DEX210V3. So I was plenty warmed up and familiar with how the track was acting today plus I was fresh off driving two fast cars that were handling properly.
Unlike Monday I had my tire bag with me so I was able to install Pro-Line 4-Ribs and Holeshots; which was the hot setup for today. The track was dry, hardpack mix of clay and dirt with a slight groove starting to form. A light layer of dust covered the track everywhere except for right in the middle of the groove. There were areas of loamy dust outside of the groove and especially on the inside of turn exits.
The changes since last time are a carefully rebuilt diff, 2/1.7 rear pistons and 35w rear oil, 1 tooth up on the pinion, 10 degrees more timing and proper tires.
The first lap was taken at half speed to get a feel for the car. STEERING! Almost to the point of being twitchy, pretty much exactly what I want. I like a car to react NOW. So this was good. I also noticed that when at half speed, the slap sound when coming down from jumps was gone. All you could hear was the thud of tires connecting. I had to really pay attention to my timing as this car is super responsive. If you think you want to be at a particular point on the track, the car is there. This is easily the most precise car I have, and that's saying a lot. At this speed the car had no issues holding whatever line I wanted and being wherever I wanted it to be. I did a couple laps this way just getting used to this new car that I had never driven before...lol
About half way through my run I gradually started pulling out of the turns a little harder and diving a little deeper into the turns at speed. First off, the tendency to dart right or left when braking is gone. The car scrubs speed very efficiently and with the MM3 setup, maintained it's composure allowing it to take a set and move on to the next part of the attack. I actually had to start paying more attention to the distance from the pipe at the apex. This car would drive deep without ever feeling like it wanted to swap ends or lose its composure. When holding the line while a little too hot it would slightly drift all four tires a bit while scrubbing speed, up until the tires were at full grip again. The nose continued to point where I wanted it to and this made it incredibly easy to fly though the apex, the epitome of what a MM car should be able to do. The balance was almost perfect. The front and rear maintained grip together and released grip together. Coming out of the turn, on all but the sharpest turns, it would maintain this balance and accelerate cleanly out of the turn. The only other car I have that will do this is the B5M, and it feels more numb while doing so. By that I mean I felt more connected to what the car was doing than I do with the B5M. it was definitely an experience coming freshly from the RC10 World's. The World's car can't corner like this even in a perfect world. The only time the car would feel loose was on 180's. Very consistently, the car wanted to continue rotating around the turn. I found myself nose to the pipe more than once until I learned to anticipate it and slowly return the wheel to center a little earlier. Typical of a MM car, the rear end would get a little squirrely if the throttle was applied to heavily but........
For battery number two I decided to move the rear shocks in one hole on the tower. I did not redo the shock length but instead relied on the droop screws to prevent to much extension. I normally like my shock length to match my total droop when using screws...but we can cheat in the field..lol. I did lose .5mm of rear ride height but decided not to mess with it yet.
SCORE! Exactly what was needed. The rear end felt completely locked in now. If I accelerated a little to hard exiting a turn, the rear end would shimmy back and forth like a 4wd car does until complete traction is regained. That simple shock position change allowed the diff to work properly and transfer power back and forth between the rear tires searching for traction. Over the years getting this just right on a 2wd buggy has always been very difficult. If you haven't seen it, when a car starts sliding to one side while accelerating and you have to back off the throttle a little to regain control, it's not happening properly. When it is, you can maintain the current level of throttle and the diff will alternate between the tires, keeping the car going straight until traction is found. It's a beautiful thing when it's right.....and I think I found it here by accident.lol
Downsiding doubles is effortless. On jumps where Downsiding is not the fastest way, the suspension soaks it up with no chassis slap. Pack is about perfect.
And all of this is on an unprepped track. During race weekends, we water it and roll it so traction is more consistent. All I can say is I think we've got a winner here. Talk about a dramatic change, no kidding. It's not perfect of course, it still has that tendency to suddenly oversteer coming out of 180's. Unrelated but I don't feel I've got the speed a 10.5 should be giving me. But it's real close to being dialed. I'd say 98%. And when I say a car is dialed, it means the car is performing to its limits; the race is won or lost by my own mistakes. Run a perfect race with this car and it's on the podium for sure.
So I'm not sure where to go now. It's so close to right that major changes are out of the question. It's going to be fine tweaks that get it there now.
If you can't tell I'm actually really stoked about how good this car got with those changes. I've never seen such a huge change. It's weird actually. Not only a new setup, but I really think that diff was causing major issues and it took rebuilding it completely, then correctly assembling it(duh) to fix it.
Anyways, how's that for a book written by two fingers on a phone...😂
Let's just say......wow.I spent the morning working with an 80% dialed in, LRP 7.5 powered RC10T5M, them moved on to a completely dialed Tekin 13.5 powered RC10 World's Car before getting to the DEX210V3. So I was plenty warmed up and familiar with how the track was acting today plus I was fresh off driving two fast cars that were handling properly.
Unlike Monday I had my tire bag with me so I was able to install Pro-Line 4-Ribs and Holeshots; which was the hot setup for today. The track was dry, hardpack mix of clay and dirt with a slight groove starting to form. A light layer of dust covered the track everywhere except for right in the middle of the groove. There were areas of loamy dust outside of the groove and especially on the inside of turn exits.
The changes since last time are a carefully rebuilt diff, 2/1.7 rear pistons and 35w rear oil, 1 tooth up on the pinion, 10 degrees more timing and proper tires.
The first lap was taken at half speed to get a feel for the car. STEERING! Almost to the point of being twitchy, pretty much exactly what I want. I like a car to react NOW. So this was good. I also noticed that when at half speed, the slap sound when coming down from jumps was gone. All you could hear was the thud of tires connecting. I had to really pay attention to my timing as this car is super responsive. If you think you want to be at a particular point on the track, the car is there. This is easily the most precise car I have, and that's saying a lot. At this speed the car had no issues holding whatever line I wanted and being wherever I wanted it to be. I did a couple laps this way just getting used to this new car that I had never driven before...lol
About half way through my run I gradually started pulling out of the turns a little harder and diving a little deeper into the turns at speed. First off, the tendency to dart right or left when braking is gone. The car scrubs speed very efficiently and with the MM3 setup, maintained it's composure allowing it to take a set and move on to the next part of the attack. I actually had to start paying more attention to the distance from the pipe at the apex. This car would drive deep without ever feeling like it wanted to swap ends or lose its composure. When holding the line while a little too hot it would slightly drift all four tires a bit while scrubbing speed, up until the tires were at full grip again. The nose continued to point where I wanted it to and this made it incredibly easy to fly though the apex, the epitome of what a MM car should be able to do. The balance was almost perfect. The front and rear maintained grip together and released grip together. Coming out of the turn, on all but the sharpest turns, it would maintain this balance and accelerate cleanly out of the turn. The only other car I have that will do this is the B5M, and it feels more numb while doing so. By that I mean I felt more connected to what the car was doing than I do with the B5M. it was definitely an experience coming freshly from the RC10 World's. The World's car can't corner like this even in a perfect world. The only time the car would feel loose was on 180's. Very consistently, the car wanted to continue rotating around the turn. I found myself nose to the pipe more than once until I learned to anticipate it and slowly return the wheel to center a little earlier. Typical of a MM car, the rear end would get a little squirrely if the throttle was applied to heavily but........
For battery number two I decided to move the rear shocks in one hole on the tower. I did not redo the shock length but instead relied on the droop screws to prevent to much extension. I normally like my shock length to match my total droop when using screws...but we can cheat in the field..lol. I did lose .5mm of rear ride height but decided not to mess with it yet.
SCORE! Exactly what was needed. The rear end felt completely locked in now. If I accelerated a little to hard exiting a turn, the rear end would shimmy back and forth like a 4wd car does until complete traction is regained. That simple shock position change allowed the diff to work properly and transfer power back and forth between the rear tires searching for traction. Over the years getting this just right on a 2wd buggy has always been very difficult. If you haven't seen it, when a car starts sliding to one side while accelerating and you have to back off the throttle a little to regain control, it's not happening properly. When it is, you can maintain the current level of throttle and the diff will alternate between the tires, keeping the car going straight until traction is found. It's a beautiful thing when it's right.....and I think I found it here by accident.lol
Downsiding doubles is effortless. On jumps where Downsiding is not the fastest way, the suspension soaks it up with no chassis slap. Pack is about perfect.
And all of this is on an unprepped track. During race weekends, we water it and roll it so traction is more consistent. All I can say is I think we've got a winner here. Talk about a dramatic change, no kidding. It's not perfect of course, it still has that tendency to suddenly oversteer coming out of 180's. Unrelated but I don't feel I've got the speed a 10.5 should be giving me. But it's real close to being dialed. I'd say 98%. And when I say a car is dialed, it means the car is performing to its limits; the race is won or lost by my own mistakes. Run a perfect race with this car and it's on the podium for sure.
So I'm not sure where to go now. It's so close to right that major changes are out of the question. It's going to be fine tweaks that get it there now.
If you can't tell I'm actually really stoked about how good this car got with those changes. I've never seen such a huge change. It's weird actually. Not only a new setup, but I really think that diff was causing major issues and it took rebuilding it completely, then correctly assembling it(duh) to fix it.
Anyways, how's that for a book written by two fingers on a phone...😂
10-26-2016, 08:48 PM
Tech Addict
Wooohooooooo!!!!
Right on Alan!!
Right on Alan!!
10-26-2016, 11:53 PM
Tech Addict
Yeah I knew the tires weren't helping on Monday but i didn't realize just how much. When everything came together the car came alive. It's funny, I do a ton of set up, tune and test. I document everything and compare thing's. It's one facet of the hobby that has always intrigued me; to the point that I enjoy taking on project cars and methodically trying to make them work. Usually this process is one small change at a time that ultimately leads to a working package. I don't think I've ever done such a complete change of everything all at once like I did on the 210. So it went from barely able to get around the track to almost dialed in one swoop. Not used to that, lol.
I'm thinking the sudden oversteer on 180's is being caused by something in the front, not the rear at this point. Something is causing the car to want to keep following through the turn.
I'm going to go back through the thread but ive also noticed that there is a lot of friction on the rest hubs. (trying to sort out the minor lack of power from the 10.5) The friction increases the tighter the wheel nuts are. It's almost like what happens when you forget the wheel spacer that goes between the bearings on a front spindle. With the addition of the Multi-Axle things have changed and I really don't like how the stock plastic 14mm hex sits.I even noticed on one where it has the imprint of the outer bearing ground into it. This didn't happen today but on Monday. Today I ensured the nuts weren't as tight. But as I'm sitting here cleaning everything I can still feel much more resistance than on the T5M and RC10. Definitely binding a bit.
I'm thinking the sudden oversteer on 180's is being caused by something in the front, not the rear at this point. Something is causing the car to want to keep following through the turn.
I'm going to go back through the thread but ive also noticed that there is a lot of friction on the rest hubs. (trying to sort out the minor lack of power from the 10.5) The friction increases the tighter the wheel nuts are. It's almost like what happens when you forget the wheel spacer that goes between the bearings on a front spindle. With the addition of the Multi-Axle things have changed and I really don't like how the stock plastic 14mm hex sits.I even noticed on one where it has the imprint of the outer bearing ground into it. This didn't happen today but on Monday. Today I ensured the nuts weren't as tight. But as I'm sitting here cleaning everything I can still feel much more resistance than on the T5M and RC10. Definitely binding a bit.
10-27-2016, 06:38 AM
you may want to get away from the stock plastic hexes if you feel the compression on them could be causing some binding, metal ones should help resist that. Not sure if you have collections of associated style wheels, but you can buy the exotek 12mm hexes for the rear and they do make titanium 12mm axles for the front (or some b5 ones will work fine on the cheap, slightly narrower).
If you want to stick with the 14mm hexes I think exotek has locking alloy ones too. Exotek has been a big supporter of the car in the aftermarket scene, I really liked there topshaft setup as well.
If you want to stick with the 14mm hexes I think exotek has locking alloy ones too. Exotek has been a big supporter of the car in the aftermarket scene, I really liked there topshaft setup as well.
10-27-2016, 08:09 AM
Tech Addict
Alan,
Go the the first page of the DESC thread:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-off-road/596475-team-durango-desc210r.html
Read the part on adding shims to rear hub. I think this will help with your binding. Same goes for front hubs if you are using hexes. The Kyosho shims mentioned will free up the hubs and allow you to crank on the nuts. Like Cain said though, I would recomend the exotek aluminum hexes. Since you also have a B5, easy to change to 12mm. I use stainless B5 front axels and they work great. I even use B4 rear hexes.
Any questions just ask.
Go the the first page of the DESC thread:
http://www.rctech.net/forum/electric-off-road/596475-team-durango-desc210r.html
Read the part on adding shims to rear hub. I think this will help with your binding. Same goes for front hubs if you are using hexes. The Kyosho shims mentioned will free up the hubs and allow you to crank on the nuts. Like Cain said though, I would recomend the exotek aluminum hexes. Since you also have a B5, easy to change to 12mm. I use stainless B5 front axels and they work great. I even use B4 rear hexes.
Any questions just ask.
10-27-2016, 12:26 PM
Tech Addict
Definitely want to stay with the 14mm. I'm pretty heavily invested in TD wheels, be it buggy, SCT and ST. Being a V3 kit, it came with the 12mm front and rear hex conversion. But I chose not to go that route. I had no issues with this until I installed the proper axle with the new multi-link setup included with the V3. I have read both the DESC210 and DEST threads when I picked them up. These threads are outstanding to get a good picture of what fails, what should be upgraded and what to watch out for. One post is usually not super helpful with this, but over the course of five hundred posts, a pattern usually can be seen.(yeah, I'm a dork lol)
I do have some TD alloy hexes left over from the DESC210 rebuild I did recently. I always restore a car to box stock when I do it so I can choose what needs upgraded. Locking hexes would solve this for sure. The way TD does it, the hexes don't push against the pin....makes zero sense but anyway. I've already installed the shims, .04 worth on the rear. I'll have to take it apart again and have a really good look at it to see why it's only now happening and not before.
I do have some TD alloy hexes left over from the DESC210 rebuild I did recently. I always restore a car to box stock when I do it so I can choose what needs upgraded. Locking hexes would solve this for sure. The way TD does it, the hexes don't push against the pin....makes zero sense but anyway. I've already installed the shims, .04 worth on the rear. I'll have to take it apart again and have a really good look at it to see why it's only now happening and not before.
10-27-2016, 01:06 PM
Tech Regular
The trucks use 15mm hex wheels, the buggies are 14mm...