What is TOO TECHNICAL for an off road track??
11-14-2008, 08:21 AM
#16
Two rules in buggy track layout...
1. It should be driveable by an absolute beginner with basic equipment.
2. There should be at least one start/finish straight without obstacles.
Common misperception is that a track needs to be difficult to be challenging for the best drivers. Actually that is competely untrue. Good track layouts are driveable by everyone but still let the best drivers shine. Little tricks like jumps that reward throttle control instead of raw power, and chicanes that have a very fast line for the tidiest drivers, but can be very slow for people that miss the apex.
PS a third rule - sadly not always as obvious to designers as it should be - the track should not be a bona-fide car-breaker. Big air may look like fun but swiftly becomes less fun when half the field are breaking parts, a rutted, bumpy surface that puts cars on the lid for no reason doesn't help either.
1. It should be driveable by an absolute beginner with basic equipment.
2. There should be at least one start/finish straight without obstacles.
Common misperception is that a track needs to be difficult to be challenging for the best drivers. Actually that is competely untrue. Good track layouts are driveable by everyone but still let the best drivers shine. Little tricks like jumps that reward throttle control instead of raw power, and chicanes that have a very fast line for the tidiest drivers, but can be very slow for people that miss the apex.
PS a third rule - sadly not always as obvious to designers as it should be - the track should not be a bona-fide car-breaker. Big air may look like fun but swiftly becomes less fun when half the field are breaking parts, a rutted, bumpy surface that puts cars on the lid for no reason doesn't help either.
11-14-2008, 09:31 AM
#17
Since you have another local track I would just go there instead.
11-14-2008, 10:01 AM
#18
I like to think that i know how to build a nice layout that is technical, while still providing good racing for every skill level. We have a local track that I just helped finish up a rebuild on and everyone loves it. A couple of the guys who work there are fast mod buggy guys and they also have a great understanding of track layout and design, but until now, were outvoiced by rookies who were scared of jumps and 17.5 racers who didn't have the power needed for big jumps. What no one understood is how much the actual shaping of the jumps changes the layout. I can build a jump that 17.5 guys cannot get over, then by only re-shaping the takeoff, they can get over the same jump at half throttle. Our new track is technical, but is also very easy to drive once you have your lines down. There are not too many jumps, but the ones that are there force you not to overjump them and learn throttle control to shave time off your laps. All can be jumped by everything, even a stock slash that is setup correctly. The thing that I am happiest about is that we have not had one complaint from any of the racers about the track, that is a first.
11-14-2008, 11:48 AM
#19
Tech Master
I agree with all of you that have said a track needs to be driveable for beginners, but challenging enough for the good racers. BUT, there is one thing you should all remember.....
You are all DAMN lucky to even have tracks to race at! Here in NZ, I have 1 (that is ONE) track within 2 1/2 hours drive.
And we electrics share it with the nitro's. In fact it is a nitro track (read: 1/10th eater).
Just trying to put it in perspective
You are all DAMN lucky to even have tracks to race at! Here in NZ, I have 1 (that is ONE) track within 2 1/2 hours drive.
And we electrics share it with the nitro's. In fact it is a nitro track (read: 1/10th eater).
Just trying to put it in perspective
11-14-2008, 12:14 PM
#20
I just started racing about 3 years ago and have been ..... well, let's go with "obsessed".. ever since. I've raced a lot of different tracks around Ohio, MI, NY, and PA and I'm fortunate to have 5 tracks within an hours drive. Here's a couple things that I wish track owners would read.
1) If there is only one line through the section than that section shouldn't be there. Too many tracks build crazy off cambers, wagonwheels, drop-offs, etc... I'm talking about an area where it's quicker to stop behind a wrecked car and wait for him to fix himself or get marshalled, than to drive wide. That's not a race track, that's a bottleneck.
2) No Downside. Track builders who have no experience, or who are just bad drivers altogether, tend to have this habit. Just because we like jumps, it doesn't mean that we don't also like a place to land.
3) Tracks that run both 8th and 10th scale.... try to avoid areas that 8th scales are going to destroy... like quads... usually, the 3rd or 4th is going to get so destroyed by 8th scales that the 1/10th scales end up having to roll them or just cross their fingers...
4) This is getting a little picky, but consider the start of your mains. Do you really want 10 cars going wide open down a straight together to only have 180 at the end of it?
Out of all the tracks I have been to, Glenwood RC in NY (which I've only been to 3 times) builds the best layouts of any track I've been to. The track is very small but it's been both technical and a blast to race on. That's why I will go back when I can.
1) If there is only one line through the section than that section shouldn't be there. Too many tracks build crazy off cambers, wagonwheels, drop-offs, etc... I'm talking about an area where it's quicker to stop behind a wrecked car and wait for him to fix himself or get marshalled, than to drive wide. That's not a race track, that's a bottleneck.
2) No Downside. Track builders who have no experience, or who are just bad drivers altogether, tend to have this habit. Just because we like jumps, it doesn't mean that we don't also like a place to land.
3) Tracks that run both 8th and 10th scale.... try to avoid areas that 8th scales are going to destroy... like quads... usually, the 3rd or 4th is going to get so destroyed by 8th scales that the 1/10th scales end up having to roll them or just cross their fingers...
4) This is getting a little picky, but consider the start of your mains. Do you really want 10 cars going wide open down a straight together to only have 180 at the end of it?
Out of all the tracks I have been to, Glenwood RC in NY (which I've only been to 3 times) builds the best layouts of any track I've been to. The track is very small but it's been both technical and a blast to race on. That's why I will go back when I can.
11-14-2008, 12:24 PM
#21
Thanks for the input nick. I am just trying to figure out a way so track "A" can pull some of the beginner/intermediate people from the area.It really isnt that I have a problem with the layouts, but they are VERY intimmidating to newbs or intermediate level people.The reason I mention this is every time I see race director "A" he talks about why everybody runs at other places.And i am trying to put together some info to present him in a diplomatic manner.
your 100% dead on this one even tho I love track "A" layouts they can become a little too much at times especially if your running the stock classes. but when its all said and down I'll still go to his track when i can find time to make the 60 mile one way trip to his place. BTW are you going to track "B" tomorrow for the season opener? WE NEED MORE MOD 2WD GUYS!
11-14-2008, 12:43 PM
#22
I have two tracks in my area that are about the same driving distance. One of them is very easy, so easy to the point where it really is not fun to race on; All of the jumps are too easy to clear, spaced to close together, and have no real point for being there. Also, the downsides are so small and so close that you are faster to just over jump them. Then there are moguls and other 'mounds' placed so that it takes what would be multiple lines of racing and turns it into a one line track. The "other" track that I race at (and enjoy) has what I would consider the perfect type of layout:
-large jumps that take a pretty good degree of difficulty to get the timing right
-Rhythm sections thats have multiple lines (not just a small 'double double') that allow you to triple-double, single double double, (you get the point).
-A variety of corners with jumps coming out of corners as well.
All of these jumps and sections take pretty precise timing, but you can still run a whole race w/out needing to be marshalled. A beginner can still go around this track without having to make certain jumps and get frustrated on any sections. To me, this is what makes a good track. You need to have something that will challenge people with skill, but has large enough gaps and a design incorporated that will allow beginners to make it around the track.
Now if you have an owner who is just designing stupid stuff that is pointless and lacks drivability, then I would definitely talk to them and tell them where you think there are areas that could make for better racing.
-large jumps that take a pretty good degree of difficulty to get the timing right
-Rhythm sections thats have multiple lines (not just a small 'double double') that allow you to triple-double, single double double, (you get the point).
-A variety of corners with jumps coming out of corners as well.
All of these jumps and sections take pretty precise timing, but you can still run a whole race w/out needing to be marshalled. A beginner can still go around this track without having to make certain jumps and get frustrated on any sections. To me, this is what makes a good track. You need to have something that will challenge people with skill, but has large enough gaps and a design incorporated that will allow beginners to make it around the track.
Now if you have an owner who is just designing stupid stuff that is pointless and lacks drivability, then I would definitely talk to them and tell them where you think there are areas that could make for better racing.
11-14-2008, 01:07 PM
#23
Tech Rookie
iTrader: (1)
My favorite tracks have basically what everyone else is saying, one straight away and fun, but doable jumps. However I think the best tracks also have one section with a very well thought out and tested jump sequence. Purely for example think of the following: corner, small jump, table top, small jump, small jump, small straightaway, corner. For the majority of people they will take the corner on the inside, jump off the first ramp and land on top of the table top, fall off the other side and double the remaining two. However if the racer chooses to take the outside of the first corner and carry more speed, they can jump clear over the tabletop from the first ramp then double the last two clearing the straightaway and taking the outside on the second corner. If designed right, the two lines take the same amount of time to complete. So this provides a really fun passing section because you can't really "block" the best line.
11-14-2008, 01:16 PM
#24
I like hard tracks, it seperates the men from the boys. When i first started i always tried to practice good habits and have since learned to love new obstacles and types of layouts. It's amazing to me how much faster this year i can learn a new layout compared to last.
When you travel to alot of different tracks you meet new challenges and in the end racing on that technical layout would only breed great racers.
why cater to the quitters.
what do you think of this ?
When you travel to alot of different tracks you meet new challenges and in the end racing on that technical layout would only breed great racers.
why cater to the quitters.
what do you think of this ?
11-14-2008, 01:55 PM
#27
Any way trophy race on the 12/14/2008
website www.raceway.com
I have no idea how big it is but it was a grueling 2 days buildin it !
11-14-2008, 02:13 PM
#28
Statements and preferences to follow 
Every track is technical in it's own way.
There are always people who won't like a certain track.
A track should be sized for the quantity of cars you expect.
Variety is an important part of it's driving enjoyment, i.e. you don't have to use every inch of space available and build nothing but 180 turns and straights. 45's, 90's, sweepers, decreasing radius, elevation changes...mix it up!
Big jumps are for bashing. Smaller jumps improve the flow.
Every track is technical in it's own way.
There are always people who won't like a certain track.
A track should be sized for the quantity of cars you expect.
Variety is an important part of it's driving enjoyment, i.e. you don't have to use every inch of space available and build nothing but 180 turns and straights. 45's, 90's, sweepers, decreasing radius, elevation changes...mix it up!
Big jumps are for bashing. Smaller jumps improve the flow.
11-14-2008, 03:27 PM
#30
Tech Elite
Thread Starter
iTrader: (42)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: anywhere I can race 2wd dirt,and 1/12 onroad in MI.
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your 100% dead on this one even tho I love track "A" layouts they can become a little too much at times especially if your running the stock classes. but when its all said and down I'll still go to his track when i can find time to make the 60 mile one way trip to his place. BTW are you going to track "B" tomorrow for the season opener? WE NEED MORE MOD 2WD GUYS!
Last edited by 2wdMod; 11-16-2008 at 05:14 PM.