Help! Brushed vs. Brushless
09-13-2008, 08:27 PM
#1
Help! Brushed vs. Brushless
Help please!
I have been out of the hobby for 2 1/2 years. When I was racing Novak had just come out with the brushless setup. I never got involved with brushless. I was running Novak GT7 esc's and stock motors as well as delving into mods here and there.
I am getting back into racing this fall. I am already getting a LiPo setup going because I know they are vastly superior than Nimh cells and also because I am sure all of my packs have crystalized from 2 years of storage.
On to my question. I would love to run brushless in my T4, B4 and my Losi XXX 4wd buggy. The only problem is cost. I have 2 perfectly fine Novak GT7 escs and an LRP. Because of that initial iinvestment, I feel I need to run brushed motors.
What does everyone think? Are there still people out there like me that cut their comms regularly?
For the life of me, I cannot remember what kind of motor it was that came out as soon as I was leaving the hobby 2 years ago, but its brushes were cone shaped or something.... Is there a stock motor out there that has brushes and comms that do not need latheing?
Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated!!
I have been out of the hobby for 2 1/2 years. When I was racing Novak had just come out with the brushless setup. I never got involved with brushless. I was running Novak GT7 esc's and stock motors as well as delving into mods here and there.
I am getting back into racing this fall. I am already getting a LiPo setup going because I know they are vastly superior than Nimh cells and also because I am sure all of my packs have crystalized from 2 years of storage.
On to my question. I would love to run brushless in my T4, B4 and my Losi XXX 4wd buggy. The only problem is cost. I have 2 perfectly fine Novak GT7 escs and an LRP. Because of that initial iinvestment, I feel I need to run brushed motors.
What does everyone think? Are there still people out there like me that cut their comms regularly?
For the life of me, I cannot remember what kind of motor it was that came out as soon as I was leaving the hobby 2 years ago, but its brushes were cone shaped or something.... Is there a stock motor out there that has brushes and comms that do not need latheing?
Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated!!
09-13-2008, 08:32 PM
#2
Sell that stuff, and get a good brushless....
09-13-2008, 08:33 PM
#3
Registered User
iTrader: (16)
Help please!
I have been out of the hobby for 2 1/2 years. When I was racing Novak had just come out with the brushless setup. I never got involved with brushless. I was running Novak GT7 esc's and stock motors as well as delving into mods here and there.
I am getting back into racing this fall. I am already getting a LiPo setup going because I know they are vastly superior than Nimh cells and also because I am sure all of my packs have crystalized from 2 years of storage.
On to my question. I would love to run brushless in my T4, B4 and my Losi XXX 4wd buggy. The only problem is cost. I have 2 perfectly fine Novak GT7 escs and an LRP. Because of that initial iinvestment, I feel I need to run brushed motors.
What does everyone think? Are there still people out there like me that cut their comms regularly?
For the life of me, I cannot remember what kind of motor it was that came out as soon as I was leaving the hobby 2 years ago, but its brushes were cone shaped or something.... Is there a stock motor out there that has brushes and comms that do not need latheing?
Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated!!
I have been out of the hobby for 2 1/2 years. When I was racing Novak had just come out with the brushless setup. I never got involved with brushless. I was running Novak GT7 esc's and stock motors as well as delving into mods here and there.
I am getting back into racing this fall. I am already getting a LiPo setup going because I know they are vastly superior than Nimh cells and also because I am sure all of my packs have crystalized from 2 years of storage.
On to my question. I would love to run brushless in my T4, B4 and my Losi XXX 4wd buggy. The only problem is cost. I have 2 perfectly fine Novak GT7 escs and an LRP. Because of that initial iinvestment, I feel I need to run brushed motors.
What does everyone think? Are there still people out there like me that cut their comms regularly?
For the life of me, I cannot remember what kind of motor it was that came out as soon as I was leaving the hobby 2 years ago, but its brushes were cone shaped or something.... Is there a stock motor out there that has brushes and comms that do not need latheing?
Any and all comments would be greatly appreciated!!
run brushless/lipo in the 2wd's ........................run brushed/nimh in the 4wd
09-14-2008, 01:16 AM
#4
Brushless is definitely where it is going... you can run a LiPo with your current ESC. You need to make sure not to run the pack too low.. just 1 time and you will most likely ruin the pack. Novak and a few others make a LiPo cut-off adapter for around $25 bucks that works with your current ESCs.
Check with your local track if you are going to race. ROAR is allowing 17.5 brushless motors in stock class and most track are starting to allow "hard-cased" LiPo packs in racing.
If you have all the tools and know-how to maintain a brushed motor you can be competitive, but with brushless and the right gearing, you will be fast no matter what.
LiPo batteries are not really faster.. they weigh about half as much and get 1.3x the run-time for the same mah a NiMh battery has. A lot of folks will tell you that LiPo lets you have more power.. but in off-road that will not be an issue at all... LiPos do require a lot less maintenance and may last much much longer in lifetime than a NiMh will... but they also cost twice as much.. and require a LiPo charger.
Good luck and welcome back!
Jerome
Check with your local track if you are going to race. ROAR is allowing 17.5 brushless motors in stock class and most track are starting to allow "hard-cased" LiPo packs in racing.
If you have all the tools and know-how to maintain a brushed motor you can be competitive, but with brushless and the right gearing, you will be fast no matter what.
LiPo batteries are not really faster.. they weigh about half as much and get 1.3x the run-time for the same mah a NiMh battery has. A lot of folks will tell you that LiPo lets you have more power.. but in off-road that will not be an issue at all... LiPos do require a lot less maintenance and may last much much longer in lifetime than a NiMh will... but they also cost twice as much.. and require a LiPo charger.
Good luck and welcome back!
Jerome
09-15-2008, 05:50 AM
#5
Tech Regular
iTrader: (1)
appologies in advance to the original poster. im in the same exact boat (around the same downtime as well, brushless were mainly used for emaxx and bashers at the time). what setup is everybody running (charger/lipo, and esc/motor {brand to help a returning noob out 
) and hopefully this answers some of the original posters questions too. thanks guys!
) and hopefully this answers some of the original posters questions too. thanks guys!
09-15-2008, 07:39 AM
#6
I was in the same boat when I returned from my hiatus.
Since then, the biggest thing I bought for my vehicle is a brushless+ESC combo (the Mamaba Max+5700Kv to be exact) and have never looked back. No more lathing, no more drooling over the counter for some 12 turn single mod motor that was close to $100 just to have a fast setup. With a brushless, you have gobs of torque and rpm at your fingertip.
As for your batteries, try cycling them a few times. Mine was in storage for about a year and a half and they seem to be "waking" up after I used it for a few times. A whole new battery and charger can get expensive, so for me, I opted not to go into LiPos yet. I'm going to run my batteries to the ground until I swap them out for LiPos. So long as you have some good packs like the GP or the IB cells, you'll be fine with a brushless setups.
In my experience, the NiMH + Brushless is just perfect for me. The "kick" and power you feel from any motor and ESC is proportional to the discharge rate of the battery (The ESC is merely switching it in a sophisticated matter). So for me, my GP NiMH are just perfect for the amount of power and kick I need for my skill level...
Good luck on your new purchases and welcome back to the wallet-damaging world of RC!
Since then, the biggest thing I bought for my vehicle is a brushless+ESC combo (the Mamaba Max+5700Kv to be exact) and have never looked back. No more lathing, no more drooling over the counter for some 12 turn single mod motor that was close to $100 just to have a fast setup. With a brushless, you have gobs of torque and rpm at your fingertip.
As for your batteries, try cycling them a few times. Mine was in storage for about a year and a half and they seem to be "waking" up after I used it for a few times. A whole new battery and charger can get expensive, so for me, I opted not to go into LiPos yet. I'm going to run my batteries to the ground until I swap them out for LiPos. So long as you have some good packs like the GP or the IB cells, you'll be fine with a brushless setups.
In my experience, the NiMH + Brushless is just perfect for me. The "kick" and power you feel from any motor and ESC is proportional to the discharge rate of the battery (The ESC is merely switching it in a sophisticated matter). So for me, my GP NiMH are just perfect for the amount of power and kick I need for my skill level...
Good luck on your new purchases and welcome back to the wallet-damaging world of RC!
09-15-2008, 07:59 AM
#7
Suspended
The way I'd look at it is --- if you're going to ditch all your old batteries and jump into Lipo then why not do the same thing with motors and esc's?
Sure you can go back to cutting comms and breaking in brushes, but I think you'd enjoy the break of no-maintenance BL system much more than you ever did by getting covered in carbon dust and fiddling with timing and looking for itty bitty washers.
Sure you can go back to cutting comms and breaking in brushes, but I think you'd enjoy the break of no-maintenance BL system much more than you ever did by getting covered in carbon dust and fiddling with timing and looking for itty bitty washers.
09-15-2008, 08:18 AM
#8
The best thing that I learned with switching to lipo and brushless this summer. After a race, all I have to do at home is clean my cars, and perform maintenance if necessary (ie. shock rebuilding, diff rebuilding, etc.) No battery maintenance. No motor maintenance really. (may have to reoil the bearings, but generally once they get to that point normally better to replace.)
I currently still have one nimh car, that's my 1/12th scale. But it appears that our track is going to move over to single cell lipo next season once the battery is released by SMC. Not certain yet, but who knows. But yeah, brushless & lipo is great.
Other advantage for me, since I run the computer for our home track, is that I can charge my lipos the night before so that I'm not so spaced the next day at the track. Also, for races that I don't have to run the computer, I have been able to spend a lot more time working on my car's setup rather than battery maintenance.
Paul
I currently still have one nimh car, that's my 1/12th scale. But it appears that our track is going to move over to single cell lipo next season once the battery is released by SMC. Not certain yet, but who knows. But yeah, brushless & lipo is great.
Other advantage for me, since I run the computer for our home track, is that I can charge my lipos the night before so that I'm not so spaced the next day at the track. Also, for races that I don't have to run the computer, I have been able to spend a lot more time working on my car's setup rather than battery maintenance.
Paul
09-15-2008, 02:04 PM
#10
We still run brushed motors in everything 1/10 scale, 2 and 4WD, and we run 7 of them. I've been rebuilding them for so many years and have a comm lathe at home so to me it's not that much extra work, I'd be pulling out the brushless motors to clean bearings anyway.
I can make brushed motors that power up as smooth as butter, for ultimate off-road traction and performance but I can't get anywhere near that with the brushless in our 1/18's. I'm sure there's a secret to it but I can't figure it out and becauese of thet they're just not as easy to drive. If you have the experience with brushed, I say go for it - they're still perfectly competitive unless you're forced to run 10+ minute mains.
Plus once we traded up to good speedo's (G-11 and QC2's) I want a few year's worth of enjoyment out of that investment!
I can make brushed motors that power up as smooth as butter, for ultimate off-road traction and performance but I can't get anywhere near that with the brushless in our 1/18's. I'm sure there's a secret to it but I can't figure it out and becauese of thet they're just not as easy to drive. If you have the experience with brushed, I say go for it - they're still perfectly competitive unless you're forced to run 10+ minute mains.
Plus once we traded up to good speedo's (G-11 and QC2's) I want a few year's worth of enjoyment out of that investment!
09-15-2008, 05:00 PM
#12
If you are really going to get back into it.. go brushless... Once you get the gearing right, they are Factory Driver status fast right off the shelf! I've seen a lot of guys at our local track that were B-Main stock drivers every week... then they got a brushless 17.5 and now they are at the top of the A-Main.
I think it's going to be a lot of fun seeing local club racers being able to compete with team drivers!
Jerome
I think it's going to be a lot of fun seeing local club racers being able to compete with team drivers!
Jerome
09-16-2008, 02:25 AM
#13
Tech Regular
iTrader: (1)
great points ive seen made here. however one thing i personally would miss is fiddeling with the motor...granted i would love to have the lipos so i dont have do do both at once, i still enjoy messing with the motor to make the most out of i can. personally, one of my favorite times was when i decided to race on a random weekend during my hiatus. i went to the track and one of the kids that i didnt know (lots who i still did) demanded i take the motor out of my car and prove it was stock. i took it as a compliment. lol. i do see brushed motors slowly dripping out of rc, but i think ill run my brushed motors til a) theyre are no more left or b) tech advances to where the brushless are by far more superior and nothing can be done...which is unlikely in offroad due to traction.
09-16-2008, 07:59 AM
#14
RC Dad is right though that brushed motors can still be good, he gets the ones his sons use to really fly. He is the ultimate pit man!
I would say why not start with 1 brushless setup and slowly get into it from there? that way you can judge for yourself what you think about it.
As for what vehicle to go with first to put the brushless setup in, I would say go with the one that you know is harder on the brushed motor and ESC. See how much benefit you get from it.
There is a sense of accomplishment when you get a brushed motor to really put out some power (had the dyno, etc. and used to work like a mad man on those motors for stock and 19T class) , but, at the same time, it can also feel like nitro engine tuning, at least to me anyway. I rather plug and go. Actual driving to me is where its at.
As for lipos, for the vehicles that still run brushed non-lipo escs, trinity does make a lipo battery that has the cutoff built into the battery pack. Or you an use a cutoff between the ESC and the pack.
I would say why not start with 1 brushless setup and slowly get into it from there? that way you can judge for yourself what you think about it.
As for what vehicle to go with first to put the brushless setup in, I would say go with the one that you know is harder on the brushed motor and ESC. See how much benefit you get from it.
There is a sense of accomplishment when you get a brushed motor to really put out some power (had the dyno, etc. and used to work like a mad man on those motors for stock and 19T class) , but, at the same time, it can also feel like nitro engine tuning, at least to me anyway. I rather plug and go. Actual driving to me is where its at.
As for lipos, for the vehicles that still run brushed non-lipo escs, trinity does make a lipo battery that has the cutoff built into the battery pack. Or you an use a cutoff between the ESC and the pack.
09-17-2008, 01:27 PM
#15
To play devil's advocate for brushed motor, I met a guy at my local track, I believe he is a sponsored/team driver for Kyosho (he had a kyosho shirt on, but not sure if he was a team driver). He told me that he used brushless before and didn't like how it felt, so he got rid of it and went back to brushed...
Personally for me, the best thing I've bought for RC has to be the brushless setup. I've always cheaped out on brushed motor (although I take good care of them with regularly scheduled comm cutting and cleaning) so I've only dealt with machine-wound ones.
Right now, my DF-03MS has the brushed system in there. I'm thinking about skipping the bullshit and just get a brushless for it before running it for the first time...
I'm considering a Hobbywing right now, but I need something that will be LiPo-ready, which are the 120A Xeruns. But I'm only considering the Hobbywings because the Mamba Max combos seems to be sold out everywhere (well, sold out at places that have good prices, like Tower and Rob's RC Hobbies).
I bought my current Mamba Max combo for $180 (before 7.75% tax), which is a steal considering it's sold for $209 everywhere else. Only Tower Hobbies comes close to that, which is the same price as everywhere else, except you can apply their usual $20 to $25 online coupon, and pay for shipping in place of Orange County tax!!!
Personally for me, the best thing I've bought for RC has to be the brushless setup. I've always cheaped out on brushed motor (although I take good care of them with regularly scheduled comm cutting and cleaning) so I've only dealt with machine-wound ones.
Right now, my DF-03MS has the brushed system in there. I'm thinking about skipping the bullshit and just get a brushless for it before running it for the first time...
I'm considering a Hobbywing right now, but I need something that will be LiPo-ready, which are the 120A Xeruns. But I'm only considering the Hobbywings because the Mamba Max combos seems to be sold out everywhere (well, sold out at places that have good prices, like Tower and Rob's RC Hobbies).
I bought my current Mamba Max combo for $180 (before 7.75% tax), which is a steal considering it's sold for $209 everywhere else. Only Tower Hobbies comes close to that, which is the same price as everywhere else, except you can apply their usual $20 to $25 online coupon, and pay for shipping in place of Orange County tax!!!
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