Roar Brushless motor debate thread.
01-08-2008, 06:58 PM
#31
In offroad anything slower than 13.5/27T just is not feasible due to the types of tracks we run here in the US.
Large big jump tracks with lots of obstacles is just dull with anything slower than a 13.5, you end up rolling a lot of jumps that a slightly faster motor would have let you lear when consistent. Offroad is about the bumps and jumps, if you can't decently clear jumps (excluding big triples quads) then its just not much fun.
As far as speed it has already been seen that a GOOD 19T will be comparable to a 10.5 BL. Also 13.5 BL is still close to a GOOD 27T in speed.
Speed = Back straight
Corners speed is separate and only good setup not motor can provide.
Large big jump tracks with lots of obstacles is just dull with anything slower than a 13.5, you end up rolling a lot of jumps that a slightly faster motor would have let you lear when consistent. Offroad is about the bumps and jumps, if you can't decently clear jumps (excluding big triples quads) then its just not much fun.
As far as speed it has already been seen that a GOOD 19T will be comparable to a 10.5 BL. Also 13.5 BL is still close to a GOOD 27T in speed.
Speed = Back straight
Corners speed is separate and only good setup not motor can provide.
01-08-2008, 07:21 PM
#32
Well I have been following this Roar Brushless Rule debate in the On-Road forum, and it is very interesting to hear all of the different opinions.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198561
Since Roar is getting reading to change some of the rules and classes by the end of the month, in regards to Brushless , they seem to be really interested in hearing the racers opinions.
So I thought maybe they would like to hear some thoughts from the Off-Road racers.
Not many people, ''my self included'', seem to have a problem with running what ever Brushless motor in Modified , and letting the 10.5 Brushless run with the 19T Brushed class.
It seems that the biggest debate revolves around the Stock class, and which Brushless motor (13.5 or 17.5) would be equal to a 27 T Brushed motor.
Most of what I have read, seems to be people wanting to try find a way to run the two different motors together , I really don't think there is any way to do that fairly.
I suggested that Roar just leave the Stock Brushed class and rules unchanged, and make there be a minimum entry for that class to be run .
Then Start a new Brushless Stock class with what ever motor can be agreed to be the best for this entry level class.
I would bet with in a very short time they will see that nobody will want to race 27t/Brushed stock class any more, and the class will just fade away .
Well that is my opinion for what it's worth, let's hear some of your idea's and suggestions in a friendly positive debate.
http://www.rctech.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198561
Since Roar is getting reading to change some of the rules and classes by the end of the month, in regards to Brushless , they seem to be really interested in hearing the racers opinions.
So I thought maybe they would like to hear some thoughts from the Off-Road racers.
Not many people, ''my self included'', seem to have a problem with running what ever Brushless motor in Modified , and letting the 10.5 Brushless run with the 19T Brushed class.
It seems that the biggest debate revolves around the Stock class, and which Brushless motor (13.5 or 17.5) would be equal to a 27 T Brushed motor.
Most of what I have read, seems to be people wanting to try find a way to run the two different motors together , I really don't think there is any way to do that fairly.
I suggested that Roar just leave the Stock Brushed class and rules unchanged, and make there be a minimum entry for that class to be run .
Then Start a new Brushless Stock class with what ever motor can be agreed to be the best for this entry level class.
I would bet with in a very short time they will see that nobody will want to race 27t/Brushed stock class any more, and the class will just fade away .
Well that is my opinion for what it's worth, let's hear some of your idea's and suggestions in a friendly positive debate.
01-08-2008, 07:41 PM
#33
I run 13.5 and finish behind 27t everyweek. The 13.5 is the perfect motor.
01-08-2008, 08:53 PM
#34
This is why 1/8th scale is taking off & electric is dwendling. When you are not at a major sanctioned race at the mecca of r/c tracks it is not easy to get a full track of cars. When you run everyone in the same class you can have a turnout of 20-30 racers & have a a great race day locally. When you spread things out in to 20 differant classes you end up w/ a lot of very small classes. Run two classes w/ not motor limit(pro & sportsman).
01-08-2008, 09:24 PM
#36
Im not a serious racer either, and I have a great time when I go, so I do understand where your coming from. I have a better time seeing all of my buddies and putting down laps than worring what place I finished in.
On the other hand instead of not running your truck at all, or being the slowest driver on the track, why dont you just buy or borrow a slightly faster motor? If you did that you would be just as fast as the other cars or trucks out there and the only thing slowing your car down would by you.
Thats the excuse thing that I was meaning.
If your the slowest driver, and one of the only guys running 13.5, the problem isnt the class that they are offering. Change and keep up with what is happening at your local track, rather than just get annoyed and throw in [b]the towel.
Though 19t or 10.5 is faster than stock, it is a lot of fun. And if your having a good time coming in first or last, what does it matter any way. Get the slightly faster motor and have your self a good time.
( please dont be offended, I just talking out loud and not being an a$$ or anything )
On the other hand instead of not running your truck at all, or being the slowest driver on the track, why dont you just buy or borrow a slightly faster motor? If you did that you would be just as fast as the other cars or trucks out there and the only thing slowing your car down would by you.
Thats the excuse thing that I was meaning.
If your the slowest driver, and one of the only guys running 13.5, the problem isnt the class that they are offering. Change and keep up with what is happening at your local track, rather than just get annoyed and throw in [b]the towel.
Though 19t or 10.5 is faster than stock, it is a lot of fun. And if your having a good time coming in first or last, what does it matter any way. Get the slightly faster motor and have your self a good time.
( please dont be offended, I just talking out loud and not being an a$$ or anything )
01-08-2008, 10:12 PM
#37
Tech Apprentice
just wondering what the point of having stock and 19 turn is? to get new people into racing? the are basically the same speed and if im a newbie i dont want to do all that stuff to my motor just so its fast and i dont want to have nihm batteries which i have to maintain and have 3 packs. i always race mod and got brushless and lipo i will never in my life go back to ni mh. im also wondering why people want to stick to brushed motors so much the new brushless ones have sintered rotors and they feel like brushed.
19turn or stock classes should be kept for new people and be allowed to race lipo or ni mh batteries and they should use this class to learn to drive and get better while all the more experienced drivers should race mod, why are you racing stock anyways. and in mod it wont matter if someones motor is faster because as mentioned above tracks are small enough that there shouldnt be a difference if your using 15 turn or 10 turn and if your saying one has more power then gear it higher to get more power.
i just dont see the fun in stock classes for experienced drivers, the cars are slow, you cant make any of the jumps and it gets to a point where if you make alittle 1 second mistake your basically out of the race. in the end it feels like your 10 years old again driving a radio shack car at full throttle all the time.
also why arent lipos legal? they only explode if you make a hole in it or if you charge it wrong. well i dont think any battery will be happy with hole and any battery will leak or explode as many ni mh did if charged wrong. hardcase lipos should be allowed and if you complain about the higher voltage then maybe novak should make a voltage regular that will make lipo have 7.2 volts. they made one to convert a lipo to 6 volts for nitro cars so i dont think it would be so hard to make one for tenth scale cars. and lipos cant be found for cheaper then 90 dollars, i got 2 yuntong ones for 75 dollars shipped with a hard case and they work amazing.
lipo and brushless is the future and it shouldnt be restricted just because you cant let go of your old stuff.
19turn or stock classes should be kept for new people and be allowed to race lipo or ni mh batteries and they should use this class to learn to drive and get better while all the more experienced drivers should race mod, why are you racing stock anyways. and in mod it wont matter if someones motor is faster because as mentioned above tracks are small enough that there shouldnt be a difference if your using 15 turn or 10 turn and if your saying one has more power then gear it higher to get more power.
i just dont see the fun in stock classes for experienced drivers, the cars are slow, you cant make any of the jumps and it gets to a point where if you make alittle 1 second mistake your basically out of the race. in the end it feels like your 10 years old again driving a radio shack car at full throttle all the time.
also why arent lipos legal? they only explode if you make a hole in it or if you charge it wrong. well i dont think any battery will be happy with hole and any battery will leak or explode as many ni mh did if charged wrong. hardcase lipos should be allowed and if you complain about the higher voltage then maybe novak should make a voltage regular that will make lipo have 7.2 volts. they made one to convert a lipo to 6 volts for nitro cars so i dont think it would be so hard to make one for tenth scale cars. and lipos cant be found for cheaper then 90 dollars, i got 2 yuntong ones for 75 dollars shipped with a hard case and they work amazing.
lipo and brushless is the future and it shouldnt be restricted just because you cant let go of your old stuff.
01-08-2008, 11:02 PM
#38
I have done plenty of back to back testing withe the 27t 13.5. Both truck and buggy. Now this was on an extremely hooked up slicks track. Hands down the 13.5 is better. Geared properly, more speed on the straight, WAY more torque. Biggest advantage was in truck. Flips over backwards on the start and can pull a wheelie out of every corner. On this type of track where you can use every bit of power you got, it is faster. When I ran it on an outdoor track with medium traction the differnce was very small, mostly being the efficiency at the end of the run.
01-08-2008, 11:12 PM
#39
i just dont see the fun in stock classes for experienced drivers, the cars are slow, you cant make any of the jumps and it gets to a point where if you make alittle 1 second mistake your basically out of the race. in the end it feels like your 10 years old again driving a radio shack car at full throttle all the time.
.
.
01-09-2008, 01:51 AM
#41
Stock is THE worst class out there. It is bad for the hobby and should be scrapped. It is just chock full of sandbaggers and people spending too much time and money on motors, motor accessories and batteries. How is that good for beginners (because that is what stock is for right?).
01-09-2008, 03:05 AM
#42
Tech Master
You guys want electric off road racing to grow again!
Forget the motor and battery rules with so many classes! Makes it way to complicated for something so insignificate to going fast on off road! You can still use the rules on the truck/buggy on wheels, size and weight.
Narrow it down to 2wd Truck, 2wd Buggy and 4wd Buggy and if you want to divide it further, do it by driver ability with the Pro, Sportsman and Novice designations!
Sorry, but everybody can't be in an "A" main!
Forget the motor and battery rules with so many classes! Makes it way to complicated for something so insignificate to going fast on off road! You can still use the rules on the truck/buggy on wheels, size and weight.
Narrow it down to 2wd Truck, 2wd Buggy and 4wd Buggy and if you want to divide it further, do it by driver ability with the Pro, Sportsman and Novice designations!
Sorry, but everybody can't be in an "A" main!
Last edited by Craps; 01-09-2008 at 03:08 AM. Reason: add
01-09-2008, 03:07 AM
#43
Ok, now they spend alot of time and money replacing broken parts. Where's the saving? You don't remember went you started, it's not that easy when you're new in the hobby. Stock or 13.5 will always be needed as it's easy on tires and parts. I've seen many who leave stock too soon and almost every race break at least once. I'm a pit dad who paid for my kids hobby. Unless you got money to burn, parents love this class. The expert stock class in the JBRL series has some of the best racers and they put on a great show.
01-09-2008, 03:14 AM
#44
I can see the carnage now, rookies running with mod motors crashing into back of other racers with slower motors. Somebody is going to start a fight. 
01-09-2008, 05:28 AM
#45
My opinion which doesn't count for much is that the rules should be simple, clear cut and easy to tech.
Apply something simple like the following to either buggy or truck 2wd or buggy 4wd and it works for all of them.
Stock 27T/13.5 (any battery)
Mod - Open (any motor, any battery)
Novice - Open with a forced bump if your times are within a percentage of the fast stock times.
A breakdown like that should work for 90% of the off-road club racing out there and with the exception of Novice should carry over to ROAR national events with ease.
Novak has been selling the 13.5 as a stock equivalent for some time now and to change it is just going to look like a marketing ploy to sell 17.5 or 21.5 or whatever motor they end up deeming the "new stock". Leave the 17.5 and 21.5 for the oval and touring car racers that are quickly adopting those motors.
The biggest advantage the 13.5 has besides lack of maintenance is that you can gear them to the moon to gain top end speed. However you sacrifice torque/acceleration on the smaller tight tracks. Just like anything it's give and take.
Allow the brushed motor manufacturers step up their game on the 27T motors if they want to keep up with the future technology.
I also feel that with the capacity of NiMh cells and LiPo that the race length should be increased. 6 min qualifiers and 8 to 10 min mains should be the standard. But that's a completely different thread.
Apply something simple like the following to either buggy or truck 2wd or buggy 4wd and it works for all of them.
Stock 27T/13.5 (any battery)
Mod - Open (any motor, any battery)
Novice - Open with a forced bump if your times are within a percentage of the fast stock times.
A breakdown like that should work for 90% of the off-road club racing out there and with the exception of Novice should carry over to ROAR national events with ease.
Novak has been selling the 13.5 as a stock equivalent for some time now and to change it is just going to look like a marketing ploy to sell 17.5 or 21.5 or whatever motor they end up deeming the "new stock". Leave the 17.5 and 21.5 for the oval and touring car racers that are quickly adopting those motors.
The biggest advantage the 13.5 has besides lack of maintenance is that you can gear them to the moon to gain top end speed. However you sacrifice torque/acceleration on the smaller tight tracks. Just like anything it's give and take.
Allow the brushed motor manufacturers step up their game on the 27T motors if they want to keep up with the future technology.
I also feel that with the capacity of NiMh cells and LiPo that the race length should be increased. 6 min qualifiers and 8 to 10 min mains should be the standard. But that's a completely different thread.
