5 Cells, the time is now!! Or atleast by 2008
08-07-2007, 08:48 AM
#136
I'm against 5 cell, because I do not see a need for change.
It won't save any money. The matchers will simply charge the same amount for 5 cell packs as they currently do for 6 cell packs.
The rules currently allow you to run 5 cells. If that extra cell does not give anyone an advantage, then just run 5 cells, enjoy the lighter weight (or more properly placed weight) and be done with it.
Electric seems to be gaining steam recently, I see no reason to make any changes.
Lipo is great. I don't use it, and since we're a ROAR track, our track doesn't allow it. (Although, we can get around this rule for next year thanks to our track also being in the AMA since our club is also a flying field.)
Speed is great. 2 race weekends ago, a stock motor won the race, because it was so slick. Last weekend, we syruped the track, and all of a sudden a 12T Double was controllable on the track and everybody had more fun. We also increased our laps by 2 in a 5 minute race. So we sped up the cars and people had more fun... Hmmm why change that?
I look at the faces of racers coming off the stand. After a race with their Mod motor, big smiles. To me that equates to no change is necessary.
I don't think racing is to fast. Yes I occasionally break stuff, but that's racing.
Paul
It won't save any money. The matchers will simply charge the same amount for 5 cell packs as they currently do for 6 cell packs.
The rules currently allow you to run 5 cells. If that extra cell does not give anyone an advantage, then just run 5 cells, enjoy the lighter weight (or more properly placed weight) and be done with it.
Electric seems to be gaining steam recently, I see no reason to make any changes.
Lipo is great. I don't use it, and since we're a ROAR track, our track doesn't allow it. (Although, we can get around this rule for next year thanks to our track also being in the AMA since our club is also a flying field.)
Speed is great. 2 race weekends ago, a stock motor won the race, because it was so slick. Last weekend, we syruped the track, and all of a sudden a 12T Double was controllable on the track and everybody had more fun. We also increased our laps by 2 in a 5 minute race. So we sped up the cars and people had more fun... Hmmm why change that?
I look at the faces of racers coming off the stand. After a race with their Mod motor, big smiles. To me that equates to no change is necessary.
I don't think racing is to fast. Yes I occasionally break stuff, but that's racing.
Paul
Thanks
08-07-2007, 09:10 AM
#137
I don't agree with 5 cells for off-road racing because...
Modified off-road is the great equilizer, anybody can run more power than needed, even with budget, low cost equipment. Its always been that way, because of this, its always been the best driver that is the winner. Just look at how many triple A-mains are won in 2 rounds at big events.
Stock and 19 turn are motor spec classes, if 6 cells make these motors too fast, then slower spec motors should be used.
Using 5 cells is currently legal, and is already being used (including a world championships and national championships). The majority of people still use 6 cells as a choice (some people make the wrong choice
).
Todays speed controls have enough profiles, limiters and adjustments that can be used to tame high powered motors or aggressive throttle fingers.
Modified off-road is the great equilizer, anybody can run more power than needed, even with budget, low cost equipment. Its always been that way, because of this, its always been the best driver that is the winner. Just look at how many triple A-mains are won in 2 rounds at big events.
Stock and 19 turn are motor spec classes, if 6 cells make these motors too fast, then slower spec motors should be used.
Using 5 cells is currently legal, and is already being used (including a world championships and national championships). The majority of people still use 6 cells as a choice (some people make the wrong choice
).Todays speed controls have enough profiles, limiters and adjustments that can be used to tame high powered motors or aggressive throttle fingers.
08-07-2007, 09:20 AM
#138
Suspended
iTrader: (1)
In auto racing there is a real need to slow down from time to time. Drivers are IN the cars when they hit a wall and danger goes up with speed. That has nothing to do with RC in my opinion unless someone thinks it's becoming dangerous to the marshals
If the issue is wear and tear or parts breakage then the cars need to get tougher. Nitro cars have had high speed for ever and they seem to handle it. Just my opinion.
If the issue is wear and tear or parts breakage then the cars need to get tougher. Nitro cars have had high speed for ever and they seem to handle it. Just my opinion.Also, as mentioned before, currently no cars are designed with 5 cells in mind no matter how well the cars actually do work with them.
LiPo is the direction in which electric must go, for longer run times, ability to purchase and use less packs and a plethora of other reasons mentioned.
08-07-2007, 09:26 AM
#139
I can't remember who initially suggested to mix everything together, but I'm on the same page as that person and Howart are. Have ROAR keep the rules how they are now for 6-cell and state them as nimh, but add to the rulebook that LIPO batteries that are 7.2V/7.4V (can't remember which voltage they are) also must meet the 6-C nimh rules for vehicle weight. Then for 5-cell reduce the vehicle weight by the weight of one cell....something like 1.4oz. Then allow people to run which ever battery type they prefer for any class as long that to meet the weight limit rules. This way the product evolution of r/c might be better influenced by things that work better as a "package" (accounting battery type, motor type - brushed/brushless, etc..) from race results and you also will have a lot more people from the pros to novices runnign something different abroad and can use info gathered from what is and isn't working to evolve r/c into something that might be just a little bit better than what it is now. What works best for one class doesn't necessarily work best for another class. So using what the TC guys did can only go so far as each requires something different from the equipment and driver.
I thought the touring car drivers went to 5-Cells to keep the motors from burning up from the voltage that the batteries have now a days when detuning the motors did not work...not to actually slow them/lap times down??? I don't see that much worse motor wear from the voltage the batteries produce now compared to when we ran 3000's since the electric brushed motors have made some changes since then to accomodate for this. I still cut my motors at about the same frequency that I did back in the 3000 days or possibly the 2400 days. So for me, I don't see a huge need for lower cells just to make products last longer as I don't have things blowing up now. Just like with anything else, treat your things well and they will last. Really the only drawback I see with the batteries now is they are so much heavier due to their larger capacity. If it wasn't for the weight, I don't think I would have any/much of a concern with 6C nimh batteries. Personally for me, I run 6-Cells like 99.99% of the time, I will run a 12 turn motor in 2wd and 10 turn in 4wd/truck in off-road the majority of the time as well. If I go to 5-Cells on a good/high bite track it's usually more to lighten the car up and also to get a different powerband from the car that you cannot achieve otherwise....but I like never do that. To make the car close to the same speed, I will go down 2-3 turns on the motor, keep the same endbell setup, and gear up 1-2 teeth on the pinion. Then the car has less top speed and towards the end of the run you can feel the battery getting softer more so than it did with 6-Cells, which can make clearing jumps, especially jumps exiting a turn, very difficult. That is with a 2wd car, for 4wd/truck I would need like a 7 turn motor and they dump faster than a 2wd car does. So having the power at the end of a run to clear those jumps would be even more of a chore than it is with the 2wd car. You can also go to 5-Cells on a loose track to get more grip which requires a different motor setup and clearing jumps on a track like that shouldn't be an issue.
I thought the touring car drivers went to 5-Cells to keep the motors from burning up from the voltage that the batteries have now a days when detuning the motors did not work...not to actually slow them/lap times down??? I don't see that much worse motor wear from the voltage the batteries produce now compared to when we ran 3000's since the electric brushed motors have made some changes since then to accomodate for this. I still cut my motors at about the same frequency that I did back in the 3000 days or possibly the 2400 days. So for me, I don't see a huge need for lower cells just to make products last longer as I don't have things blowing up now. Just like with anything else, treat your things well and they will last. Really the only drawback I see with the batteries now is they are so much heavier due to their larger capacity. If it wasn't for the weight, I don't think I would have any/much of a concern with 6C nimh batteries. Personally for me, I run 6-Cells like 99.99% of the time, I will run a 12 turn motor in 2wd and 10 turn in 4wd/truck in off-road the majority of the time as well. If I go to 5-Cells on a good/high bite track it's usually more to lighten the car up and also to get a different powerband from the car that you cannot achieve otherwise....but I like never do that. To make the car close to the same speed, I will go down 2-3 turns on the motor, keep the same endbell setup, and gear up 1-2 teeth on the pinion. Then the car has less top speed and towards the end of the run you can feel the battery getting softer more so than it did with 6-Cells, which can make clearing jumps, especially jumps exiting a turn, very difficult. That is with a 2wd car, for 4wd/truck I would need like a 7 turn motor and they dump faster than a 2wd car does. So having the power at the end of a run to clear those jumps would be even more of a chore than it is with the 2wd car. You can also go to 5-Cells on a loose track to get more grip which requires a different motor setup and clearing jumps on a track like that shouldn't be an issue.
08-07-2007, 09:38 AM
#140
It was the reason I came back into the hobby after about 10 years off (that and brushless) and why I think more people are getting into electric and driving the growth.
I don't think 5 cell will change anything because:
- You will still need to buy the best cells to compete
- You will still need lots of packs for racing
- You will still need all the same battery dischargers etc.
- Guys will still run more motor than they can handle regardless of how many cells they run.
- You then exclude a large and growing amount of existing LiPo users from racing (I am one who will not attend a lot of races if I can't run LiPo now). This is bad for growth.
- You are taking a step backwards and it is a short term fix as LiPo IS driving the resurgence of electric racing and we should work with it to grow the hobby even more.
We race open Mod class in our area and we see no edge really between guys running LiPo's and Brushless and the guys running NiMH and Brushed (or NiMH and Brushless).
What I think needs to be done is kill off some classes as this really thins out the field at most races. Stock class is THE worst racing class out there as it is anything BUT stock. Between all the battery wars, motor voodoo tricks and sandbaggers, it is the worst racing out there. 19T should be the "amateur/beginner" class and the "Pro/Advanced" should just be an open class. We should also ax the age groups as this is a hobby and it isn't necessary to split people up by age.
It's all about simplifying...not making it so complex that it turns people off to the hobby.
08-07-2007, 09:42 AM
#141
I don't understand this push for 5-cells to be the standard. The current rules, if I translate them correctly, is that 6-cells is the max that can be used to power your car. So, if you want to run 4 or 5 cells in what ever class, that is your choice so long as you don't run more than 6 cells. Six cell has been the standard for a decade I don't see changing that until Lithium-style batteries become the norm. For those that are in love with running 5-cell packs, run them at your races. However, don't complain when a guy with a 6-cell pack whips your a$$.
For those that say going to a 5-cell standard will save the hobby, you are full of bologna. That is the biggest load of propaganda since the days of the USSR. The battery industry is like the oil/auto industry. They will tell you anything to keep you spending so that they stay highly profitable. Like I have stated in a post somewhere on this forum, as soon as Sanyo, Panasonic, IB, SMC, etc can swing a deal to either get their names on LiPo packs or can produce them themselves, they will tell you anything to keep themselves alive in the market.
For those that say going to a 5-cell standard will save the hobby, you are full of bologna. That is the biggest load of propaganda since the days of the USSR. The battery industry is like the oil/auto industry. They will tell you anything to keep you spending so that they stay highly profitable. Like I have stated in a post somewhere on this forum, as soon as Sanyo, Panasonic, IB, SMC, etc can swing a deal to either get their names on LiPo packs or can produce them themselves, they will tell you anything to keep themselves alive in the market.
08-07-2007, 09:50 AM
#142
I am neither pro lipo or anti speed reduction. As I stated earlier, speed is the name of the game. However, no one has talked about mastering said speed by learning how to drive your car. That takes learning the car, learning what setups work best for your car under whatever conditions in front of you, and then learning how to harness that speed to your advantage. This requires tons of practice. Has anyone watched the videos on the Japanese racers. Many of them practice at least 6 hours a day, perfecting their skills and harness speed into their skill-set. Speed is nothing if you don't know how to harness it and use it to your best ability(ies).
08-07-2007, 09:59 AM
#143
LiPo is better in every way. It is better performance, lighter weight, more straight forward charging, lower maintnence, MUCH more econimical. NiMh needs to be mothballed and the faster, the better. Leave the cell count rules alone, just amend them to allow 2c Lipo unrestricted (except for minimum weights). If 6cell NiMh can't compete then it should go extinct along with brushes.
If there needs to be a speed limitation then do it with a vlotage regulator. That will insure that there is no battery war. This has gone on long enough...
If there needs to be a speed limitation then do it with a vlotage regulator. That will insure that there is no battery war. This has gone on long enough...
08-07-2007, 10:08 AM
#144
5 cell, eh
at the reedy race , touring car, the mod cars running 5 cell were faster and broke the track record...
so much for slowing them down, dumb idea
at the reedy race , touring car, the mod cars running 5 cell were faster and broke the track record...
so much for slowing them down, dumb idea
08-07-2007, 10:16 AM
#146
I am against 5-cell because I am pro lipo. I am not totally against speed reduction either.
Basically I am against rules that don't allow LIPOs to compete. Unlike some people here, I went LIPO to save money, not to go faster. I spent $80 on one LIPO 4400mah saddle pack for the BJ4WE, and recently I went to a $100 lipo pack for my B4 and MF2. I abide by the rest of the rules. I increased the weight in my B4, BJ4WE, and MF2 using lead to get it up to weight. I have faith that soon ROAR will be allowing LIPOs in all classes as long as weight is all equal. Our track already allows LIPO in all classes, but when they hold the Western Slope Challenge, I have to pull out my old IB3800 NIMH.
When I used to race stock, it was the most frustrating thing. I never was as fast as the pros. I couldn't afford the best motors every couple months and I couldn't afford to buy batteries all the time either. In stock, I was always saying "if I only had his batteries" or I was saying, "if I only had his motor". I don't say that anymore with my Novak GTB 6.5r or 5.5r motor and LIPOs. I am as fast as any of them now.
Basically I am against rules that don't allow LIPOs to compete. Unlike some people here, I went LIPO to save money, not to go faster. I spent $80 on one LIPO 4400mah saddle pack for the BJ4WE, and recently I went to a $100 lipo pack for my B4 and MF2. I abide by the rest of the rules. I increased the weight in my B4, BJ4WE, and MF2 using lead to get it up to weight. I have faith that soon ROAR will be allowing LIPOs in all classes as long as weight is all equal. Our track already allows LIPO in all classes, but when they hold the Western Slope Challenge, I have to pull out my old IB3800 NIMH.
When I used to race stock, it was the most frustrating thing. I never was as fast as the pros. I couldn't afford the best motors every couple months and I couldn't afford to buy batteries all the time either. In stock, I was always saying "if I only had his batteries" or I was saying, "if I only had his motor". I don't say that anymore with my Novak GTB 6.5r or 5.5r motor and LIPOs. I am as fast as any of them now.
08-07-2007, 10:37 AM
#150
