I hear what you're saying. I was just playing around a little in my post. All of this is really experimentation, not tuning...and experimenting is fun! I've been finding it very interesting myself. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out over time.
10 minute qualifiers with 15 minute mains.
I am also a run what you brung kinda guy. It will even out because the "fast" motors are not always track motors.
I agree on the 10-minute qualifiers but I think the mains should remain at 10 minutes too. Like I've said before when you add 2-3 minutes of warm up laps and then your final lap possibly going 45-50 seconds over the 10-minute clock expiring you can easily be on the track for 14 minutes. 14 minutes means that there are MANY affordable battery/motor/gearing combinations that will "SAFELY" work. When you jump up to 15 minutes that could mean you may need up to 19 minutes of run time which poses a lot of difficulties for some setups. It also raises the risks of having a safety hazard by someone dumping their cells too low. It also raises the costs as batteries that will last that long in 3S, 4S, 5S or 6S configs will cost a lot more.
As for equipment rules, I don't see any reason at this time to subject this class to any of those rules "yet". What works and works well around the track will sort itself out as this class grows and more guys are racing them at the track. Like you said, a fast motor is not always the answer for getting around a track fast.
I'm about as far from a battery engineer as you can get, but I IMHO, it seems like a hard shell battery is what it should end up as. KISS, should be the M.O. allowing as many new people to be introduced to the sport as possible.
I also am not sure why we would want to go away from the short heats. We'll be adding classes at a lot of tracks, and there is a limited amount of time in a day to race. With some tracks adding Traxxas slash spec classes, I don't thinik they should get crazy with heat times.
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Losi 8ight - Novak HVMAXX 6.5
X-Ray 808/V-Spec
Jammin CRT/Jammin.28
Slash/like it came out da box.
Tony, your stuck in the nitro mentality. You don't need to run the 4 or 5 min warm up. The 1/10th guys dont run the warm up, they check in and run one or two laps. The warm up has always been a nitro thing. We just need to check in and put your car on the grid wait for the tone and run 15 min.
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I've been following this thread for the last 30~50 pages or so now, and I finally want to ask a couple of things.
I've got myself a Losi 8ight (for cheap, I hope; $350 for a never-run buggy) that I want to convert, but I'm waiting for the 1:8 brushless scene to settle down a bit before I take the plunge. I'm on a pretty tight budget, so I can't justify spending $1000 on all the stuff needed on a whim (and I'll need an ESC, motor, servo, pinion, RCPD kit, maybe lipo batteries+charger), so I'm waiting for there to be a more clear cut choice for a reliable ESC and motor (maybe when CC releases MMM+Neu package)...
Anyway, my question is regarding LiPo batteries vs. NiMH. Right now I've only got 2 stock electric cars, both powered by $35~ NiMH batteries and I have a $70 Duratrax Pirahna charger for them. Problem is, obviously, it can't charge LiPo, even if I could afford a $200 LiPo battery pack right now.
So I want to know if using two 6s NiMH packs would be a viable starting point, until I can afford to upgrade to LiPo.
Most likely my setup will be the following:
-8ight buggy
-RC Product Designs EL8 kit (not sure if going for Ultimate battery tray is worth it or not yet)
-Monster Mamba (when I can be more assured that it won't die in 10 mins)
-Neu 1512 1.5D/F or 2D/F or 2.5D/F or 1Y/F (not sure why no one here talks about 1Y/F version? is it not good?) - when I knew very little I was originally gonna go for the Novak HV Pro 6.5 system, but after reading so much about Neu motors I really can't go for anything less... no matter how expensive it may be =(
-a 4s lipo or something, this is way off in the future and depends on Motor choice I guess.. until then, two 6s nimh packs if possible?
My question is: can I use two Venom 3000mAh NiMH packs in series (14.4v) in place of a 4s lipo until I can afford to get LiPo? I'm not planning to race it hard at first, as I'm just a beginner atm.. but definitely want to in the future.
After hearing how you need at least a 20C, even 25C or higher discharge-ability LiPo, I'm not sure if NiMH is up to the task... :/
On another note, how much would a good LiPo-capable charger cost, and what are good ones worth looking into?
I agree on the 10-minute qualifiers but I think the mains should remain at 10 minutes too. Like I've said before when you add 2-3 minutes of warm up laps and then your final lap possibly going 45-50 seconds over the 10-minute clock expiring you can easily be on the track for 14 minutes. 14 minutes means that there are MANY affordable battery/motor/gearing combinations that will "SAFELY" work. When you jump up to 15 minutes that could mean you may need up to 19 minutes of run time which poses a lot of difficulties for some setups. It also raises the risks of having a safety hazard by someone dumping their cells too low. It also raises the costs as batteries that will last that long in 3S, 4S, 5S or 6S configs will cost a lot more.
As for equipment rules, I don't see any reason at this time to subject this class to any of those rules "yet". What works and works well around the track will sort itself out as this class grows and more guys are racing them at the track. Like you said, a fast motor is not always the answer for getting around a track fast.
I say do 20 minute mains.My car will do it.I am geting 23 24 minute run times with no problems.I have 3 other friends that all have conversions that will do it.We always race against the nitros in 20 minute mains and almost always finish good.http://thunderalleyrcraceway.com/res...kly/5-3-08.pdf car that finished first and car that finished 3rd were both conversions in these results.In the sportman class A main.
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As for standards. I think the standard 5 minute qualifiers and 15 minute mains are perfect. Its an easily achievable race length where you dont have to overload the buggy with a ton of battery, yet still long enough that you can make up for a mistake or 2 in the main and still do well.
With three 5 minute qualifiers and a 15 minute main I can race the whole day with 2 batteries and never even need to recharge as long as I dont run a whole lot of unnessary "warm up" laps before each qualifier. With a 5s 4350 pack I can get just about exactly 20 minutes. I can run all 3 qualifiers on one pack and the main on the other and run the entire race day on just 2 packs. This allows for a little economy so you dont need 3 or 4 packs just to get you thru the day. (especially if you run at a more "rustic" track that may not have easy access to power for the charger) The only reason for warm up laps is to let the nitros get their motors up to temp and running right before the race starts. Most of the time while the nitros are busy heating up their motors I will run 1 lap to make sure everything is in order and feeling right and then just park it near the starting line and hang out anyway.
Edumakated:
Since we will both be at the track tomorrow for practice, I'll bring my 1512/2.5D (2050kv), 1512.3D(1700kv), and 1515/2.5D(1650kv) and you are more than welcome to toss them in your buggy and test them all if you want to. I am planning to do some motor testing myself. I'll probably have 10 different motors with me and your welcome to test whatever you want in your RC8.
As you are more than aware... I prefer the lower rpm setups. What I have found is with proper gearing they are just as powerful as the high kv setups, but less high strung feeling and more driveable to me. It'll be a free way for you to get the feel of some different motor sizes and see what you like for yourself. Everyone has a different idea of what feels good to them.
BTW... Every motor I own has male 5.5mm bullets on it, so I hope that will work for you. I'm not sure what connectors you are running. I find that the 5.5mm bullets stay together better/tighter with the longer engangement length vs the 6.5mm connectors.
My question is: can I use two Venom 3000mAh NiMH packs in series (14.4v) in place of a 4s lipo until I can afford to get LiPo? I'm not planning to race it hard at first, as I'm just a beginner atm.. but definitely want to in the future.
After hearing how you need at least a 20C, even 25C or higher discharge-ability LiPo, I'm not sure if NiMH is up to the task... :/
On another note, how much would a good LiPo-capable charger cost, and what are good ones worth looking into?
Thanks a lot in advance, this is a great thread!
Yes, you can run on NiMH packs. 12 cells will probably "feel" closer to a good 3s lipo than 4s. The reason is they cant maintian the same kind of discharge as a good lipo. Also, the 12 cells will also be significantly heavier than a lipo and over the course of the run you will feel them becomeing weaker as they discharge, where lipos maintain almost the same power throughout the dischagre untill they dump at the end. But the short answer to your question is yes you can run a conversion on NiMH. No, its not ideal.
EDIT: Just to clarify... They must be good NiMH cells. Not cheap crappy ones. If you try and use crappy ones you will be asking for trouble. But any good race spec NiMH cells that are sold today should run your buggy. GP or IB cells would be an example of good cells and Tenergy would be an example of cheap crap.
I've expected the kind of performance you've described out of them, but that's good enough for me to start off. After all, I'll be upgrading from a stock silver can motor to a Neu BL, hehe. I was just worried that their low discharge rate ability would pose a big problem and burn out the ESC/Motor or something, before I can afford to replace them with LiPo.
About your point on needing quality NiMH cells... Since I already have one 6-cell Venom-3000 NiMH pack, I wanted to be able to use (and get a 2nd one) to save money, instead of buying 2 expensive NiMH packs... It's supposed to be a temporary solution, so I don't wanna waste a lot of money on NiMH.
Do you think that the cells in that Venom 3000 pack would work? I'm guessing they use the lower end cells, as it was about the cheapest NiMH pack at the LHS when I got it a year ago for my 1:10 Mini Cooper. :/
Anyway, my question is regarding LiPo batteries vs. NiMH. Right now I've only got 2 stock electric cars, both powered by $35~ NiMH batteries and I have a $70 Duratrax Pirahna charger for them. Problem is, obviously, it can't charge LiPo, even if I could afford a $200 LiPo battery pack right now.
So I want to know if using two 6s NiMH packs would be a viable starting point, until I can afford to upgrade to LiPo.
...
My question is: can I use two Venom 3000mAh NiMH packs in series (14.4v) in place of a 4s lipo until I can afford to get LiPo? I'm not planning to race it hard at first, as I'm just a beginner atm.. but definitely want to in the future.
After hearing how you need at least a 20C, even 25C or higher discharge-ability LiPo, I'm not sure if NiMH is up to the task... :/
I don't know how many other guys actually have experience with NiMH in 1/8 but I do and I'll share it with you.
I did a conversion on a GS Storm set up for two packs using a Novak HV 6.5. Here's a pic if you are interested:
I actually ran it the first time with a pair of two year old 3300 NiMH matched packs. Trying it in the street, before I first raced it, I wasn't sure if it was fast enough to be competitive. It was, but that was with matched packs. I really don't think you would get good results with stick packs.
I eventually got a pair of LiPos for it. With the NiMH, I wasn't sure if was fast enough until I got it on the track with other cars. When I put the LiPos in it, it was almost frighteningly fast. A day later, I got my 8ight running with a MaxAmps 6000 LiPo and a Neu 1512 2.5/D/F. Now that was frightening, at least just running it on the street to try it.
So you could get away with matched NiMh packs, but probably not the Venom 3000s.
(BTW, I tested some Venom 3000s for use in a spec class. Their average voltage at a 17 amp discharge was only 6.42. Those 3300s tested at a 20 amp discharge were 7.05V. The 3800s you see in the pic of my buggy tested at a 30 amp discharge had an average voltage of 7.45V. The Venom 3000s are junk. I really don't think you would be happy using them in a 1/8th conversion, especially with the current draw of a Neu motor.)
It starts to seem to me like it might be a good idea to simply save up for LiPo to begin with... Spending $30 on a cheap nimh stick for mediocre performance with $500 worth of electronics (esc + motor) doesn't really seem worthwhile... :x $100 (2x $50 for good NiMH packs, I'm guessing?) for decent performance might be a better idea, but then why not go all the way to LiPo if I'm spending that much anyway... >.<
Well, I'll see how it goes. I'll try to wait for CC to release their 1:8 combo system with the MMM and a Neu-like motor, as I'm sure that'd save me some money. As long as their Neu-like motor isn't much worse than the authentic one.
But where can I find some info on good LiPo chargers? LiPo batteries? Thanks.
Yea... I'd skip the venom 3000's. Probably not built for quality cells. They are OK for puttering around the driveway with a RTR 1/10, but a 1/8 brushless setup will need some capable NiMH.
Matched packs like TA had probably arent necessary cuz they are typicaly the top performing cells from a batch and are match them for similar discharge capability. But for sure a side by side pack of quality GP or IB cells at least.
Just remeber... The battery is the key to a good brushless setup, and Garbage in = Garbage out just like anything else in life. Its like trying to run a Ferrari on kerosine... you might get the motor to fire up, but your not gonna be very happy in the end when you ruin your engine.
Sure other folks will charm in, but I have two recommendations on lipo chargers for you Shur..
The first is the one I bought my brother that he has been using for his plane batteries. He loves it and says that it has been doing a great job so far.. but he runs pretty small capacity batteries. Also a power supply needs to be bought seperately with it but the same company sells one that works perfectly and it's very cheap.
The downside with that one is not being able to set the capacity (it automatically sets it for you based on the current and time) It works well, but it's just something that didn't sit right with me. It's nice that it comes with so many leads though. Also Lazertoyz is literally a mom and pop shop, Dan and Diane do an awesome job and have SUPER customer service.
The second charger is the one I purchased as my upgrade from the old faithful "ice" charger, it is a re-branded Hyperion. It does every thing I can throw at it and with the add on lead set shown here is awesome! You do have to buy a power cord for it though if you want to use the A/C inlet (same as all computer plugs and REALLY easy to come by) The company goes in and out of stock really fast so it's best just to use there notification system and then jump on it when it comes in stock. (it's actually in stock now )
Last thing.. I would have bought this charger if I had a little more cash and they EVER had it in stock.. (been out of stock for months) it is a king kong charger for sure
Sure other folks will charm in, but I have two recommendations on lipo chargers for you Shur..
The first is the one I bought my brother that he has been using for his plane batteries. He loves it and says that it has been doing a great job so far.. but he runs pretty small capacity batteries. Also a power supply needs to be bought seperately with it but the same company sells one that works perfectly and it's very cheap.
The downside with that one is not being able to set the capacity (it automatically sets it for you based on the current and time) It works well, but it's just something that didn't sit right with me. It's nice that it comes with so many leads though. Also Lazertoyz is literally a mom and pop shop, Dan and Diane do an awesome job and have SUPER customer service.
The second charger is the one I purchased as my upgrade from the old faithful "ice" charger, it is a re-branded Hyperion. It does every thing I can throw at it and with the add on lead set shown here is awesome! You do have to buy a power cord for it though if you want to use the A/C inlet (same as all computer plugs and REALLY easy to come by) The company goes in and out of stock really fast so it's best just to use there notification system and then jump on it when it comes in stock. (it's actually in stock now )
Last thing.. I would have bought this charger if I had a little more cash and they EVER had it in stock.. (been out of stock for months) it is a king kong charger for sure
Does your LHS not have any chargers? Everyone is always looking for a good deal, but there would be a lot less places to race if we didn't use them at least some of the time.
Even if they have a grumpy old man that only knows about DICE and CARDS, they still can supply parts for us.
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Losi 8ight--MMM 2650 Castle
Losi 8T 2.0--Neu 1515 1Y/F MMM V1 or 2200 Castle
Enerland Batteries 5S-5000 Mah or 5S-5000 Turnigy
www.rcproductdesigns.com
Schmutz ist für den Rennsport, asphalt ist für die Anreise
This is what my LHS has to offer in terms of chargers... Ok, I think that page may be a little out of date as I'm sure he has some LiPo-capable chargers in store, but I don't see any listed there.
I have nothing against buying from LHS (even though the prices there are about 25%~ higher than what I see on US websites, I still can't get a much better deal anywhere else, so might as well support them/not deal with shipping times) and I've bought most of my things from there so far.
But right now I'm just trying to do some research about LiPo chargers and find out what'd be a good buy for me. Is there any de facto standard more or less when it comes to a selecting good LiPo charger.
Once I know the name of the charger I wanna get, then I'll decide where it would be best to get it from.
I've heard the name Hyperion mentioned somewhere as well, and it seems like they might be decent LiPo chargers. I was just looking at Hyperion EOS 0610iNET and it looks promising... Althought I'll need a separate power supply for it.
Anyway, I don't want to derail the topic too much, but if anyone could give some pointers or link me to somewhere that I can find out more about lipo chargers (and lipo batteries?) I'd appreciate that. Thanks for your suggestions billdapart, I'll be sure to consider them!
P.S. I am planning to stop by the LHS when they re-open next week to ask for some advice, but I find the guy there is generally not very helpful to me and tells me to find out on the internet lol. >.<
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