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Old 12-11-2006, 11:29 PM   #46
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and to clear things up. lowering the car "loses traction". raising the car "gains traction". read http://users.pandora.be/elvo/ -- suspension section, page 3 "roll center". its all summed up in the last paragraph.
That's a very general statement, isn't it? Lowering the car due to body roll or weight transfer can also increase traction. Softer rear springs, can help get you there.
A great article, which deserves it's own thread.
I have read it many times.
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:46 AM   #47
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I coulda sworn Wild Cherry just shared some useful info with us that could help you go faster at the track. Why all the flaming???????
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Old 12-12-2006, 12:56 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
In real race car`s , don`t they install more weight when your car is too fast ?

Uh no? In NASCAR all of the cars are 3400 lbs. with the driver but when the driver weighs so much, they add weight to compensate. The advantage to having a light driver is they can add the weight wherever they want.

I don't think Indycar follows the same guideline, they weigh the car without the driver, so the lighter drivers technically have an advantage. There was a fuss about this over Patrick and how light she is compared to the other drivers.

Oh and by the way, when you ADD weight you increase grip, with the increased weight of th battery, when the car would roll through the turns the tires would actually increase in grip because of the increased weight shift to that tire.

Anyway hi.
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Old 12-12-2006, 01:17 AM   #49
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I thought I would add to this crazy slag-fest... why not?

OK, some racing series do have weight penalty, JGTC (now SuperGT) has weight penalty for high finishing cars that carry over to the next round (to slow them down) other Touring car series have these rules too.

its slightly different, in 10th off-road, especially 2WD buggy, we have WAY more power than we can put down, we dont need rules to restrict how fast our cars should go, the track limits how fast you can go (we dont need TC rules here!)

in the same respect, sometimes faster laptimes can be achieved with a heavier car (adding weight to the back of a B4)

on the flip-side, some people don't go faster with this 'mod'

5 cell was proven at the worlds against 6 cell cars etc (not weight, just voltage - they still ran 6 cells inside their car)

I don't think Wild Cherry is suggesting the rules get changed, he is just sharing a 'secret' that made him fast (thanks for that!)

I am interested to know how he positioned his 5 cells in the battery tray? all back? all forward?

more weight = more grip? I would say this might be true if your tires have bite, if thats the case you could get the body rolling and generate grip that way.

less weight = more grip? this is also true, especially if there is not much bite in the track, try and stop a one tonne object from moving towards you, now try the same thing with something that weighs half as much, which is easier?
that is basically the job that your tires are doing (or trying to do) if there is less weight being thrown around, your tires have an easier time.
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:20 AM   #50
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Hey Richard, Doughty, you're absolutely right, he is just sharing a tuning tip that has helped him with his lap times which is great.

I guess some of us are just scared by the power of forums these days. If all of us were in agreeance with using 5 cells then what's to say a ROAR rep isn't taking note and suggesting it to the board? A bit of resistance to show the concerns is a good thing.

If the rules stay as they are then we can all live in harmony!
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Old 12-12-2006, 03:26 AM   #51
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Allright, my 2 cents:

* 5 cells is cool. I tried it with a brushed motor on an extremely bumpy, loose track. It was faster. Tried it with a 4* on a similar track, It would've been OK, if it werent for the 4*'s powerband being completely wrong for off-road.

* 5 cells positioned all the way back = understeer city. (And it's a big city) You need them in the middle somewhere. Which is hard with a B4 because of the shape of the battery brace.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:04 AM   #52
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On the minimum weight issue:
My B4 with 6 cells and a GTB brushless setup is more than 5oz over minimum weight with no lead added (the GTB motor is ~30gm heavier than the average brushed motor). There is plenty of weight to play with regarding the removal of cells.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:23 AM   #53
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A couple years ago we tried 5 cell at WInterfest in Indy. 5 cell...just 5 cells in the car, two pads behind the pack and a graphite ft fake cell in front, 10 turn motor geared 78/22. Worked ok and you didn't have to cut the motor for about 8 runs. Felt better with all 6 cells in the car but just 5 wired up.

That was for practice...all of us ran 6 cells, all wired, with a 12-14 turn geared the normal 8-9 over for the race.

However, on a loose track, I still just wire up 5 when I can't get the car to feel right....leave everything else the same.
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Old 12-12-2006, 07:41 AM   #54
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Most of us are not flaming him for finding a way to be faster. We just want to make sure its properly understood WHY this is.

doughty, more weight = more grip always. the thing is if you have enough bite you can shed the weight and get better results. think of a full dump truck racing an empty dump truck. both will have plenty (atleast the ones i know about) of bite but the lighter one will speed up faster.

jgroenhof: given that there is only so much grip. you can change your car's down travel / roll time to make better use of the existing grip. if the grip is higher you dont want the car to waste time doing this unnecessary/slower travel. Thats all this is saying. (and yes lowering a car can "increase grip" - recently we had to lower my friends nitro truck a 0.25 inch on the oval to keep it from bicycling/traction rolling.) it all depends on the surface.
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:06 AM   #55
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what about if you put a pound of lead on the front of the car, infront of the front axle line on a 2wd buggy. Does that give you more grip?
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Old 12-12-2006, 08:31 AM   #56
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Wow... why all the flaming back and forth??? I remember at the 2004 ROAR Mod Natioanals Brian Kinwald ran a sedan wing on the back of his XXX-4. I don't know what the theory behind it was, but his car was hooked up and he made the main. Once it was in the magazines, people were doing it at our local track. Just think though, if someone came on here and said they ran a sedan wing on a XXX-4 and it was dialed, they would get flamed non-stop.

Anyways, back on topic... At the worlds in Italy I ran 5 cells, along with many of the fastest guys in the world, but we still used 6 cell packs (only hooked up 5). Dropping a cell completely would make the car bounce around like crazy, especially on that track. We actually added weight to the cars to gain traction and settle the chassis down. 5 cells doesn't loose a lot of top speed, but it tames down the punch a bit, but in a different way than going to a slower motor. Going to a 15 or 16 turn can make the whole car feel doggy and peak out quick on the straight, but dropping a cell is more of a traction control type thing. On some tracks, you can't really make the claim to just "drive better," especially when if there is absolutely no traction. In this case, a little less punch will make the car more consistent. Off-road is all about making the car consistent and easy to drive. Anyone who says that says, "If you can't handle the power, go back to stock" needs to rethink that statement. If that were the case, why isn't everyone running 7 and 8 turn motors to get more power? I'm not bashing here... just giving my experiences with using 5 cells.

On high bite tracks, we have done a lot of testing with 5 vs 6 cells over the last 3 years. We still always found that keeping the 6th cell in the car (whether it was hooked up or not) was better... 5 cells put the car under weight, and then it usually got way too twitchy. When you go to 5 cells, you need to drop 2-3 turns on the motor to make up for it. Overall, it is close, but a different feel. Its almost like loosening the slipper a bit. The only tracks I have ever run on where I liked 5 cells better was really rough and loose outdoor tracks where traction is at a minimum. Even then, its still a close call, it just comes down to driver preference. On high bite, the lap times are basically the same when you find the right combo, but you don't get that wheelie ripping power. That can be good at times, but it can also be a bad thing since sometimes you need the voltage to power around a corner or get over a jump if you didn't get a good run at it.

The bottom line is, whatever makes you faster in a 5 minute race, then run it. If someone flames you for it, who cares. Beat them in the main 5 weeks in a row and I bet they will start trying what you are trying.
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Last edited by Brandon Rohde; 12-12-2006 at 08:52 AM.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:18 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by DavidAlford
I give up dude. You win. I'm tired of fighting about stupid stuff on this site. I'm tired of people trying to dumb down RC racing by using brushless and lipo so they dont have to do a bit of work on the car. I'm tired of people bitching that rc racing is too fast and we need to slow down.
Wow. All he did was post some interesting results about running with 5 cells and you practically have a coronary. Waaa Waaa, who cares what your friends think? Get some new friends.

I for one don't plan on going down a cell at this time but I like to hear what other people are doing. If you think bigger is always better before long your ideas will be obsolete and you'll be getting passed on the track. That a pretty infantile train of thought. Did he not say his lap times went down with 5 cells? That's all that matters to him and his testing.

What I can't stand is people like you always raining on someone else's parade. Get a life. You don't have the answer to everything. Especially since you are openly criticizing someone else's experiment of which you had no part.

I'll bet you are a sad and bitter person on the inside.
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Old 12-12-2006, 11:44 AM   #58
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Aaah! C-On !!

Daves kool , His opinion`s as far I`m concern are valuable & welcome ....

Hey ! everyone !!!

Only so far have only run 3 pack`s with the 5 cell....


If go 18 laps , we will know 5 cell is faster...



just watch how many racer`s start doing the same as me ....
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
If go 18 laps , we will know 5 cell is faster...
.... is faster for you on your track....
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:48 AM   #60
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Maybe it hasn't been said already, but no one is going faster with 5 cells if you have poor cells. WildCherry fella has said he has the best cells in the world right now with more volts than any before. (IB 4200 - widely regarded as being more power than you can use! certainly in a 2WD modified)

Sure he can use 5 cells - I just wonder if I can keep up with my 2.5 year old 3300's ? 6 cell maybe, 5 cell maybe not.

Thats just my impression. I ran 5 cells at tiverton this year along with my friend. I had to swap back to 6 cells because my car was just so slow. My friend had new cells and he was fine.
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