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Old 02-08-2012, 03:45 PM   #31
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Racers want performance. You can't tell the tread pattern on the tires when they are spinning.
Me wanting to see block tread tires in Stock/17.5 has absolutely nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with how the trucks drive. It's supposed to be a limited class, with the overall performance level capped for rookie and budget drivers to keep the field together. Easiest way to do that is through tires. By putting low-grip tires on the trucks, there's no need to have high C-rating batteries or an explosive boosted motor, all you'd be doing is spinning the tires and making the truck harder to drive than it needs to be. And it closes up the field because nobody can simply run away with more power, and sliding around presents more passing opportunities, reducing the blue-groove "follow the leader" racing.

With all that's going on in brushless motor technology, the old rules for "Stock" that only consisted of which turn motor you could run have become completely irrelevant. I see races all the time now that have Stock classes running just as fast or even faster than Mod. Any way you look at it, that's completely azz-backwards. If we can no longer limit the performance of the motor the next logical choice is limiting tires, and frankly I'd be satisfied if that was the only rule in the class. Any motor you want, any ESC settings, any battery. But you have to put it through "these" tires. That's the new limiting factor for the class, the feature that centers it between Sportsman and Open where it belongs.

This isn't a "suffocating" rules package, matter of fact it has the same amount of rules the class used to. Before it was a limited motor and any tire; now I'm suggesting any motor and a limited tire. And if that's still to much of a cap on your want for performance, that's what the Mod/Open class is for. Simple as that.
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Old 02-08-2012, 08:54 PM   #32
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Racers want performance. You can't tell the tread pattern on the tires when they are spinning. Want tires that last and still work pretty well?; get the Losi Eclipses.

If there were no flames or day glow mice bodies on the track, you'll have a hard time distinguishing your truck from a sea of "Scale" bodies. There aren't a ton of paint schemes available, so you may or may not end up with several of the same exact body in a race. When the SC10 and Slash were all that was available, it was tough at times. People (mostly noobs that got on the SCT bandwagon) would often wreck because they were driving the wrong truck... even I did it once!

VTA hasn't brought On Road back, suffocating rules won't preserve SCT. Its up to the local RD to decide what's best at his track. While I'm sure industry insiders know things I don't, I've been racing long enough to know that what I'm saying is accurate. I respectfully disagree with Joel Johnson former world champion and Kendall Bennett CEO of A Main Hobbies.
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Originally Posted by OTE_TheMissile View Post
Me wanting to see block tread tires in Stock/17.5 has absolutely nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with how the trucks drive. It's supposed to be a limited class, with the overall performance level capped for rookie and budget drivers to keep the field together. Easiest way to do that is through tires. By putting low-grip tires on the trucks, there's no need to have high C-rating batteries or an explosive boosted motor, all you'd be doing is spinning the tires and making the truck harder to drive than it needs to be. And it closes up the field because nobody can simply run away with more power, and sliding around presents more passing opportunities, reducing the blue-groove "follow the leader" racing.

With all that's going on in brushless motor technology, the old rules for "Stock" that only consisted of which turn motor you could run have become completely irrelevant. I see races all the time now that have Stock classes running just as fast or even faster than Mod. Any way you look at it, that's completely azz-backwards. If we can no longer limit the performance of the motor the next logical choice is limiting tires, and frankly I'd be satisfied if that was the only rule in the class. Any motor you want, any ESC settings, any battery. But you have to put it through "these" tires. That's the new limiting factor for the class, the feature that centers it between Sportsman and Open where it belongs.

This isn't a "suffocating" rules package, matter of fact it has the same amount of rules the class used to. Before it was a limited motor and any tire; now I'm suggesting any motor and a limited tire. And if that's still to much of a cap on your want for performance, that's what the Mod/Open class is for. Simple as that.
Very good Debate/argument. I think we have real good entry level with the box stock Slash. Crash and bash till ya can steer and run a consistent line.

And I will agree a 17.5 sct with the regulated tires open to every thing else, awesome idea. It will force a disciplined trigger and help drivers to harness power by not being able to use it. Lots of benefits to this idea. And it will make a seasoned racer want to run a performance class. 17.5 and over with a more open rule. Allowing closer racing between New racers trying to advance there skill level. The facility would have to police the regulated classes though.
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Old 02-09-2012, 04:35 AM   #33
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+1

I race carpet off road but have raced indoor dirt a few times, it seemed that any set up tips were top secret and I remember everytime id lose control on the unfamiliar surface and bump somebody just about everybody on the drivers stand would start running there mouth.
R/C is one big jigsaw puzzle IMO.

You got to look at all the pieces and make them fit for it to be fun.

Or, if you have raced for as long as I have, you become very laid back about actually getting the car on the track, or where you finish...
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Old 02-09-2012, 07:32 AM   #34
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Me wanting to see block tread tires in Stock/17.5 has absolutely nothing to do with appearance and everything to do with how the trucks drive
I understand, but I want my Race Truck to handle well. Block tires are terrible, I'm interested in performance. Driving an ill-handling RC is nothing short of frustrating.

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It's supposed to be a limited class
I disagree. This is a Racing Class. Even with limited tires, the fast guys are still gonna wax the slower ones. Crappy handling does NOT equal closer racing. Case in point; I race VTA, and I typically win. Not by a small margin either, I usually lap the field 2-3 times. The other drivers aren't bad; I've just got a really good handle on this car. They even play pranks on me, turning my EPA way down while I'm spotting.

Ultimately my point(and I know I'm hammering this) is that dramatic limits resulting in crappy handling will NOT preserve a class. At some point, people are gonna try to improve the performance. One of the first steps, is a tire that works better than the junk that comes with RTRs.(I'm talking about a blue groove track, not a loose loamy one where anything with big stiff lugs works, and you can ignore setup) The tire, as I'm sure we'll all agree, is the among the most critical components to a racer. Why oh why would you want it to drive like crap? If its about cost control, then at least for noobs and low budget people it would make sense. That's actually one of the reasons I got into and enjoy VTA. I don't have to buy tires for 6+ months.

If you want a beginner class, it should be run-whatcha-brung. At our local tracks, that class is a great way to get people into racing. They are often very close, even when its a T-max VS a 1/16 Slash, with a 2WD Stadium Truck thrown in.

Again, I believe that the local Track Owner/Operator should decide what's best for his track. If a block tire is fun and popular, then by all means go for it. But to blame the inevitable demise of SCT on better performance seems silly to me. All Fads Die.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:11 AM   #35
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I understand, but I want my Race Truck to handle well. Block tires are terrible, I'm interested in performance. Driving an ill-handling RC is nothing short of frustrating...The tire, as I'm sure we'll all agree, is the among the most critical components to a racer. Why oh why would you want it to drive like crap?
As I said before...
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I think a lot of people's opinions on block tread tires comes from the early days of Short Course when the stock Slash tire was all there was, and in my experience they really aren't that good a dirt tire (blue groove clay and carpet though, they work surprisingly well). The block treads that've come since are a LOT better on dirt than the original Slash tire was (my two favorites right now are the Maxxis Trepadors and Pro-Line's Trenchers), and you still have to drive it like a real dirt car with the tail end out.

I just wanted to show people that with a little time, effort, and practice, it's really not that hard to be consistent on a block tread tire.
And again, if you still can't get over the handling of a block tread, then run Mod/Open. I won't hold it against you.

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If you want a beginner class, it should be run-whatcha-brung. At our local tracks, that class is a great way to get people into racing. They are often very close, even when its a T-max VS a 1/16 Slash, with a 2WD Stadium Truck thrown in
Right, but I'm not trying to describe a "beginner" class, I'm trying to describe an "intermediate" class between Sportsman and Mod/Open. Something that allows a lot of adjustability in the form of chassis setup, shocks, etc., but caps the major factors of performance and cost for the people just coming out of Sportsman, that they don't immediately get dumped into the expert-level "anything goes" Mod/Open class. At the end of the day I'm just trying to smooth out the learning curve.
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Old 02-09-2012, 08:14 AM   #36
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I can only speak for my local track but here are (IMO) key elements to making sure people come back to race:

1) Helpful, polite guys who race and deal with race control, who can also answer questions to newcomers or school them.
2) a high bite track that is car friendly as possible. It is easier to find a setup on a high bite track, than to find grip or forever change setup to find optimal grip.
3) A class of racing that suit the majority of racers who come along.

other things that are not "must haves" but "would be nice".

4) An indoor facility so you can definately race all year round.
5) Race fees and membership that are not over priced.
6) somewhere to eat and drink near by.

Racing is like a cake, find the right ingredients and you will enjoy it!
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Old 02-09-2012, 10:14 AM   #37
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2) a high bite track that is car friendly as possible. It is easier to find a setup on a high bite track, than to find grip or forever change setup to find optimal grip.
As a dirt racer that's the only one I disagree with, as that's what separates dirt racing from asphalt/carpet. Look at any other form of dirt motorsports in the 1:1 world, whether it's short track oval, motocross, desert racing, rally, tractor pulling, etc., the big divide between the dirt crowd and the pavement crowd is dirt racers accept that the track will change from race to race or even lap to lap and consider that when setting up their vehicle. Most dirt racing fans look forward to the fact that because the grip level can change so radically, cars that were fast at the start might fall to the back, and similarly cars that were slow initially will gain ground as the track conditions start to align with their setup. It's not as easy setup-wise, sure, but it is an accepted part of the culture. My Old Man (who was very involved with Midwest dirt track racing when he was my age) once told me, unless there's a rut or pothole or some other feature that's outright damaging the cars, you as a driver have no right to complain about the track conditions. You're supposed to set up the car for the track, not set up the track for the car.

But that's an entirely different discussion and I'm sure there's still a lot to be said on the current topic, so I'll leave it at that. If anyone wants to discuss it further with me (and let's face it, this is the RCTech chat lounge. I'm bound to have pi**ed somebody off with that), send me a PM. [/threadjack]
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Old 02-09-2012, 11:16 AM   #38
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And again, if you still can't get over the handling of a block tread, then run Mod/Open. I won't hold it against you.
Why splinter a successful class? It works great as is, no need to try and suffocate it with excessive rules. The Mains separate the skill levels, as they always have. This could come right back to the "Participation Trophy" argument.

Quote:
Right, but I'm not trying to describe a "beginner" class, I'm trying to describe an "intermediate" class between Sportsman and Mod/Open. Something that allows a lot of adjustability in the form of chassis setup, shocks, etc., but caps the major factors of performance and cost for the people just coming out of Sportsman, that they don't immediately get dumped into the expert-level "anything goes" Mod/Open class. At the end of the day I'm just trying to smooth out the learning curve.
At least on our local tracks, there simply aren't enough racers to divide them that way. You'd end up with 3 classes of pretty much the same trucks. That would make the race day too long, and winning each little division that much less significant. We even tried the spec class thing... it quickly dried up. People saw how much better the aftermarket tires worked, and switched classes.

SCT is just the flavor of the month... so to speak. While I don't see them going dinosaur on us for at least a few years, nothing will stop them from eventually disappearing. Remember how big Monster Truck was? Truggy did basically the same thing at our track. They are all but gone now. Stadium Trucks are a thing of the past, but who knows... maybe they'll come back.
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Old 02-09-2012, 12:18 PM   #39
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Not enough racers at our track, there aren't enought to create a sportsman class. The sportsman racers hang out in the beginner class. So there is no real beginner beginner class. without a viable class for first time beginners to start you will not get new racers to keep the class going.

I already see issues brewing and will be starting to prepare a TCS Tamiya Gt2 car which is the Tamiya Sportsman class. The TCS is still very popular and at least they require realistic bodies.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:48 AM   #40
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As a dirt racer that's the only one I disagree with, as that's what separates dirt racing from asphalt/carpet. Look at any other form of dirt motorsports in the 1:1 world, whether it's short track oval, motocross, desert racing, rally, tractor pulling, etc., the big divide between the dirt crowd and the pavement crowd is dirt racers accept that the track will change from race to race or even lap to lap and consider that when setting up their vehicle. Most dirt racing fans look forward to the fact that because the grip level can change so radically, cars that were fast at the start might fall to the back, and similarly cars that were slow initially will gain ground as the track conditions start to align with their setup. It's not as easy setup-wise, sure, but it is an accepted part of the culture. My Old Man (who was very involved with Midwest dirt track racing when he was my age) once told me, unless there's a rut or pothole or some other feature that's outright damaging the cars, you as a driver have no right to complain about the track conditions. You're supposed to set up the car for the track, not set up the track for the car.

But that's an entirely different discussion and I'm sure there's still a lot to be said on the current topic, so I'll leave it at that. If anyone wants to discuss it further with me (and let's face it, this is the RCTech chat lounge. I'm bound to have pi**ed somebody off with that), send me a PM. [/threadjack]

I'm cool with it, its a good call

I should add that I only race TC, and indoors so I am used to high bite tracks.

I have enough to think about with r/c, I don't like the hassle of looking for grip to make it fun.

The buzz for me is to see the atmosphere of a close carpet race unfold.

Other people will natually call out my post and say, "off road, outdoors is better".

Whatever floats your boat, it's all good.
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Old 02-10-2012, 09:08 AM   #41
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OTE Missle,

I think that with most outdoor tracks, asphalt included, you can experience big changes in track conditions. From mid day to late afternoon with shadows for instance. I experience extreme track conditions at a Tamiya TCS on road Nationals . Temps were in the 90's track temp 114. first two days, Last day it rained, washed off the traction and temps dropped into 60's and 70's. unfortunately the night before I glued up all tires for the mains with inserts, but everyone was running with no inserts. My car was undriveable and I placed at the bottom because I was unable to stay ahead of the temp change. This was the second time this had happened at the Nationals but this time the track change was very exreme.

It took a while to get over that, but I'll be back.

I guess that what makes racing challlenging, to be able to stay ahead of changing conditions. Ask any NASCAR crew chief!
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:10 PM   #42
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Default ROAR Body Appearance Standards

Here is what ROAR has mandated for all full bodied classes ie SC Touring etc:

ROAR sets an appearance standard for bodies in some classes including Short Course.

“competitors entered in full-bodied classes (e.g. Touring, Short Course, Truck,
On-road, etc.) run bodies that have at least a minimum level of
headlight, grille and taillight decals or painted representations on all
bodies where applicable.”


Competing at a National Championship has always been a crowning
achievement for many aspiring racers. ROAR National Championships have
been some of the most competitive events in the history of RC and the
“higher level of racing” has been a time-honored tradition that
separates these competitions from all others. The Acronym “ROAR” stands
for “Remotely Operated Auto Racing.” “Auto” is the operative word, which
implies that we race some form of vehicle that loosely resembles that
of full-scale vehicles. As such, ROAR will require that competitors
entered in full-bodied classes (e.g. Touring, Short Course, Truck,
On-road, etc.) run bodies that have at least a minimum level of
headlight, grille and taillight decals or painted representations on all
bodies where applicable. Bodies with no such details will not be
permitted to compete.

Some may view this as an unnecessary distraction, but doing so presents
our hobby and sport in a more organized and professional manner, and it
only requires a very small effort on behalf of the racers. Please just
make use of the decals included with the bodies that you’ll run on the
track and help to present the RC community in a more positive manner.
Then, when people who see high level competition for the first time, who
might otherwise confuse these as blobs, might actually recognize these
as cars and trucks.
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