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Old 03-31-2010, 12:29 AM   #1
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Default 2010/2011 WCICS Official Thread

2010/2011 WCICS Reps are:

Edmonton: Ian de la Salle
Calgary: Josh Carter
Regina: Kevin "Dadda" Phillips
Lethbridge: Dave Cole & Tom Tilleman

Below are the 2010 WCICS meeting motions and votes. These form the rules changes for the 2010/2011 season. Due to overwhelming demand to have the rules in place so racers can plan and have certainty in what they're buying, discussion on 2010/2011 rules is now closed. The unfortunate exception is the TC stock motor class, that is currently 21.5, but if there is a ROAR rule change before Sept 1, 2010, will be changed to follow that rule. All other rules & classes are set until the end of the 2010/2011 season.

Discussion for possible 2011/2012 changes are welcome either on-line, or preferably directly with your local WCICS rep. The reps will meet and vote on whatever issues are brought up, and have a final set of rules voted on and published for the 2011/2012 season by April 1, 2011. If needed, a possible on-line member vote may be set up.

WCICS Changes by majority (50%+1) vote, approximately 30 members in attendance.

1. WGT and 1/12 Pan cars to run 1S Li-Po batteries only; changed from NiMh and Li-Po allowed.

2. Qualifying is to be pre-sorted based upon standings as follows; changed from current random sorting at all events:
a. The first qualifier of the season will be sorted based upon the total final point standings of the previous WCICS season.
b. The first qualifying round of all following races is to be pre-sorted based upon the current WCICS point standings.

3. Resorts will be done after every round (1, 2, 3 & 4); changed from resorts after rounds 2, 3 & 4 only.

4. WCICS will follow the current ROAR rules in place as of Sept 1 for the entirety of that WCICS season, effectively freezing the ROAR rules for the following year.

5. A special vote to allow a temporary change to the voting rules (normally 50% +1), to allow for a vote with four choices on new rules for Touring Car stock class; as below. Each member was allowed to vote for only 1 choice.

6. Provisional: Touring Car Stock class will be 21.5 or higher turn motors UNLESS ROAR changes their applicable rules, or has an announced provisional rule in place, for Touring Car Stock motors before Sept 1, 2010. Vote was recorded as:
a. 8 votes for 21.5 motor with current 2s batteries and ESC’s.
b. 6 votes for 1s batteries with current 17.5 motors and ESC’s.
c. 5 votes for fixed timing ESC’s with current 2s batteries and 17.5 motors.
d. 1 vote for negative (leaving the current rules in place)

Good luck and good racing to everyone, we'll see you in Edmonton!

EDIT: I'll leave the above voting results in for reference, but the WCICS reps will be meeting over the summer. We'll certainly take the above votes into consideration, but to avoid any future issues the reps will be seriously considering how and why we are modifying any of the existing ROAR rules. We'll be posting the final rules August 1, and they will be fixed for the duration of that season.

Josh

Last edited by IronRing Racing; 04-02-2010 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:29 AM   #2
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Dwayne/Kevin perhaps you missed the discussion a while back. Dwayne I'd talked to you personally on the Sunday. Kevin, my apologies if I didn't update you, been giving you space, lol. However, one of the votes at the meeting was about freezing the rules or following ROAR day and date. Personally I was on side with following Roar day and date, but the vote was clearly that the majority wanted the rules frozen.

You've seen tons of posts over just the last 10 pages, only some of which I in my post on last years thread, asking for the same thing. Some even just asking for a dictatorship! Personally I think that's a bad idea, and just means the anger/fighting all gets directed an one poor, unfortunate, unpaid fool that volunteers for that role (hey wait, that's every club Pres! lol)

My point is, it's what the majority voted for, clearly want, and so the motion was passed.

Everyone at the meeting (and the race for that matter) agrees we've got a pretty good thing going. 4 cities, roughly 150 entries per race, BC guys looking at either copying our series or joining it, Karz looking at joining it. Quite soon we could very possibly be a victim of our own success! Can you imagine if Karz and the BC races joined, there would be a WCICS race almost every other weekend over the winter, 2 per month! Now I believe the BC guys are just going to do thier own series for now, but it gives you an idea of how well this series is doing when there's tracks all over the world that are closing due to low members.

Back to the discussion. The motions stated above are only the ones that were passed and change an existing rule. What you missed by not being there is that there was probably 10 more motions made, everything from silver can/red dots to TC mod, that were defeated in favor of KEEPING the existing rules.

IN OTHER WORDS, RACERS AGAIN AND AGAIN VOTED IN FAVOR OF KEEPING THE RULES EXACTLY THE SAME. We need to realize that's a GREAT thing, it means people are HAPPY with the series we put so much work into running!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerkevin View Post
The one major problem that I have with the rules was the total dumping of our biggest class 17.5 which I bet everyone that drives a touring car has and is now obsolete with these set of rules.
I do agree that having non boosting esc in 21.5 would make it a problem to run 17.5 also so that would have to be figured out what direction we would go with that. 21.5 could be our new gt/stock class, but that would have to be figured out.
"30 racers that put in the 2 hours at the WCICS meeting to voice opinions and vote for what they wanted."
This is exactly what it should have been what they "wanted" Those proposals could have been brought back to each club after the event and then voted on by each club. If that was done then those changes could have been talked about and maybe some tweaks to those plans could have been found since it does affect each and every club by what we are forced to run at the wcic race.
Kevin, we're not "totally dumping our biggest class". Not sure where you got that idea? The only changes are the lower weight, and 21.5. I had an initial show of hands of who felt stock needed to be slower, and as far as I recall, everybody raised their hand. We discussed, at length, all the options.

Fixed timing: Huge difficulties and costs around teching fixed timing.
17.5 with 1S battery: Uncertainty if packs would fit, much more difficult to change electronics (voltage boosters or receiver packs & regulators) than just a motor, and because the packs are lighter, the additional difficulty of having to add and remove weight every time between stock/superstock classes. All compared to just changing a motor.
24.5: Concerns about gearing and availability.
etc, etc, etc

Do the math boys, it's the cheapest, easiest, simplest way. And remember, with almost 100g off the cars for next year, 17.5 would have been even faster! When it boils down to it, the consensus was that stock SHOULD be a class that you could bring a friend to, hand him a touring car, and be reasonably sure he can at least go out and have a fun time. This year, from the show of hands, everyone agreed it was too fast, and it will be even faster next year with lighter cars! So will superstock for that matter! It's not rocket science and we didn't reinvent the wheel.

We looked at every option, and simply put, going to a slower motor was the best option. Really, I don't know what everyone is complaining so much about, we went to a slower motor, THAT'S IT!

As for the format of voting in Calgary, I didn't like it any more than you did. It wasn't my choice, at the time I wasn't even a WCICS rep, but I was asked to do it. As I've said repeatedly, I would have much rather had a beer and watched the movie.

But that was the format for change that we had at the time, and the last time when 30+ racers would be in the same room until Edmonton next year. So we made the best of the situation and had a meeting, just like last year. I agree it could be better, which is why the WCICS reps have talked, and we're changing the format for next year.

So Kevin, exactly what you described is the way it will be for the next 12 months.

Josh

Last edited by IronRing Racing; 04-02-2010 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 10:58 AM   #3
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My point is, it's what the majority voted for, clearly want, and so the motion was passed.
Seriously, I don't see that same majority now.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:21 AM   #4
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The ranking system "how-to" is being worked on by ROAR right now, and perhaps its guidelines will work for the WCIC, if not a fall back system could be the the one Scotty Ernst uses, otherwise I have ideas as well, but most won't like them, but I'm in hope that most will let their conscience be their guide.

Locking the rules already is just not right, but I see we will be in disagreement about this, same as last year.

The issue of the 17.5/21.5 stock class information is incorrect, or at least from what I hear. I think its a 2 part issue, and because of this a proper fix was not presented. The 2 issues are that no one wants 17.5 to be changed, but we also think that its too fast for a newbie to the series. The way around it would be to leave 17.5 as it is, but introduce 21.5 into a new catch all class "GT", any TC chassiss can be used and this would be combined with the current class as it is, so we could have a hodge podge of motor technologies running in this class, sliver cans, sc red dots, 21.5 what ever, the only real thing with the clsss is it should be regulated by a weight rule, as it should right now, but is not.

In any matter, I don't want to pollute this thread with more negativity, any other issues I have I will go thru my rep.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:44 AM   #5
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well i guess thats it, 20 racers voted on the rules for next season, never mind the other 90% of guys who race in the series, rules are locked and loaded, too bad its only shooting blanks
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Old 03-31-2010, 01:35 PM   #6
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Fresh season. Looking forward to some relevant series updates from the WCICS reps on this thread.

Maybe we need a separate thread for some of the more casual discussion... it would make it much easier for people who are looking to find out the essentials about the series, if we didn't make them read through too much bs.
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by rc pete View Post
Fresh season. Looking forward to some relevant series updates from the WCICS reps on this thread.

Maybe we need a separate thread for some of the more casual discussion... it would make it much easier for people who are looking to find out the essentials about the series, if we didn't make them read through too much bs.
+1...
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Old 03-31-2010, 05:42 PM   #8
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Josh, is 1/12 stock 17.5 only next season? Thanks.
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:37 PM   #9
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One thing to remember guys, I'm simply standing up for what the members at the meeting voted for. In several cases I personally voted for something else (as an example I voted against freezing the rules), but the majority voted for the freeze and I'll abide by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by big deee View Post
Seriously, I don't see that same majority now.
That's because you're staring at a computer screen, not a room full of people!

I just went back and counted the number of people that race in WCICS that posted over the last 10 pages of last year's WCICS thread,it's just over 20. Don't know how you do the math, but that's about 60% of the 30+ people at the WCICS meeting. So yeah, majority, living and breathing majority, whether you see it on your computer screen or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Wishbone View Post
The ranking system "how-to" is being worked on by ROAR right now, and perhaps its guidelines will work for the WCIC, if not a fall back system could be the the one Scotty Ernst uses, otherwise I have ideas as well, but most won't like them, but I'm in hope that most will let their conscience be their guide.

Locking the rules already is just not right, but I see we will be in disagreement about this, same as last year.

The issue of the 17.5/21.5 stock class information is incorrect, or at least from what I hear. I think its a 2 part issue, and because of this a proper fix was not presented. The 2 issues are that no one wants 17.5 to be changed, but we also think that its too fast for a newbie to the series. The way around it would be to leave 17.5 as it is, but introduce 21.5 into a new catch all class "GT", any TC chassiss can be used and this would be combined with the current class as it is, so we could have a hodge podge of motor technologies running in this class, sliver cans, sc red dots, 21.5 what ever, the only real thing with the clsss is it should be regulated by a weight rule, as it should right now, but is not.

In any matter, I don't want to pollute this thread with more negativity, any other issues I have I will go thru my rep.
Johnny, we always want your input! As to the rules, hell, personally I agree with you! To eliminate all this chaos I'd support following ROAR to the letter, day and date changes, and removing all of this stress from the WCICS volunteers.

WHY DO YOU THINK STU ISN'T INVOLVED ANYMORE, AS A WCICS REP OR ANYTHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone (as far as I remember, by show of hands) said they felt 17.5 needed to be changed. As you said "we think it's too fast for a newbie class". GT's an idea, but as has been pointed out, it's really a different class, different focus, and effectively you're diluting TC into 3 classes.

Quote:
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well i guess thats it, 20 racers voted on the rules for next season, never mind the other 90% of guys who race in the series, rules are locked and loaded, too bad its only shooting blanks
Wow, it's been posted numerous times how many people attended the meeting, how did you miss that. But from your count that means we have 200 racers? Wow, then how come Edmonton and Calgary, the 2 biggest races, get about 60? The same 60. 30+ at the meeting represents about half of the normal race attendance at our biggest events. That's more than enough for a quorum by any associations standards. By your math there's 200 racers that race our series?

Look at the real numbers. Right here at the WCICS results:

http://www.wcics.sarcarclub.com/Race...ndings0910.pdf

The highest number in any class is TC at 64 & 43, then all the other classes are 20-30. That's everybody that's raced at any WCICS event this year (Calgary results aren't in as Kevin is busy ). Given that most race in multiple classes, they're probably talking under 100 total racers. Maybe Kevin can run the numbers on the actual excel file and give us the total number of individual racers. 30+ for a meeting is a pretty good representation. Most societies acts require 10-15% of the total membership to be in attendance for a quorum, we had 30%.

Look, nobody is saying that having meetings in any single city is the best approach. It's simply what was done the year before, so we followed suit. Feedback is that people want to simply talk to their reps rather than sit in a meeting, so we've changed it.

It's unfair to blame Calgary for the meeting. As far as Dwayne told us at the Calgary WCICS race, there was a WCICS meeting in Regina with a vote on the heat structure. None of the Calgary exec, race coordinators, or even the Calgary WCICS rep had been told of the vote!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rc pete View Post
Fresh season. Looking forward to some relevant series updates from the WCICS reps on this thread.

Maybe we need a separate thread for some of the more casual discussion... it would make it much easier for people who are looking to find out the essentials about the series, if we didn't make them read through too much bs.
AGREED!

Quote:
Originally Posted by c-lyon View Post
Josh, is 1/12 stock 17.5 only next season? Thanks.
Colin, 1/12 stays the same at 17.5, just the weight changes. Funny you brought it up, as when I was running my 1/12 for the first time at WCICS I thought to myself, "This is what a stock class should feel like, I would be comfortable bringing any friend in, handing him a radio, and being pretty confident he'd have a good time and not be intimidated and turned away."

At the end of the day, that's all we're trying to do. Provide a TC class that somebody new can step into and feel comfortable.

Last edited by IronRing Racing; 04-02-2010 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 03-31-2010, 08:58 PM   #10
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Thanks for clarifying everything officially for everybody Josh!

Looks like WCICS is moving forward and letting the reps look after the decision making process.

Rest assured you've got at least one more onroad newbie amazed that smooth tires can control a vehicle at all! Looking forward to finishing above last place next year.
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Old 03-31-2010, 11:02 PM   #11
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No problem, glad to help! And glad to have a new racer!

Hopefully it clarifies it for everyone. It's not a perfect system, nothing is, but we're doing our best to make it better. It's already a great series, and hopefully getting better!

Discussion is certainly welcome, but the WCICS reps won't always see what's posted here.

Your best bet is to talk directly to you local club WCICS rep, and changes from now on will be made by the reps, as SOOOO many people have requested.

Next year at Calgary, no meeting, MOVIES & BEER in stead!

Josh
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:30 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronRing Racing View Post
Colin, 1/12 stays the same at 17.5, just the weight changes. Funny you brought it up, as when I was running my 1/12 for the first time at WCICS I thought to myself, "This is what a stock class should feel like, I would be comfortable bringing any friend in, handing him a radio, and being pretty confident he'd have a good time and not be intimidated and turned away."

At the end of the day, that's all we're trying to do. Provide a TC class that somebody new can step into and feel comfortable.
Completely agree. Loosing 4c will help a tonne too, mine was a handful at the Calgary leg. the 1s is SO much more user friendly, all i need now is a lipo bag that will fit my whole 12th scale
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:47 AM   #13
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Let me know if you find one. (or two).

And thanks for the info Josh.
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Old 04-01-2010, 09:14 AM   #14
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Rest assured you've got at least one more onroad newbie amazed that smooth tires can control a vehicle at all! Looking forward to finishing above last place next year.
Hey in sportsmanship and attitude you won that race buddy
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Old 04-01-2010, 10:04 AM   #15
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I think rules can change just like last year meeting. We decided to run round
cell for one more year. Start of the season we had lipo cell in our cars. I think
we can make a few changes to the rules. I would like to see silver can to be only seventeen doller moters. No more red dotes. And in Edmonton we do not
stack heats.
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